General Grievous vs. Darth Maul & AOTC Anakin

1) my observations dont negate cannon at all, just cause he was a good duelist doesnt mean dooku took him seriously. i can be soooooo good that i dont take a good duelist seriously. and dooku was soooo good that he didnt have to take padawan ani seriously.

2) my point exactly, grevious gave dooku a challenge. but dooku whoped anakin, so grevous would sautee padawan anakin.

3) dude my point is he is training combined with accurate cybernetic, and mathematical techniques. in your effort to minimize grevous' ability you fail to note that going toe to toe with mace windu and even learning vaapad instantly shows how great he is at dueling.

my good sir years of experience doesnt equal win. case in point, dooku was about 3 times as old as anakin but anakin still beat him in rots.

4) why isnt "more powerful" all inclusive including technichal ability?

5) my only point in this observation of he jedi council's progress is to show how the council's development and thier most powerful jedi dawrf anoons prestige greatly if you need examples i will be happy to provide.

Gideon, I'm not gonna get to this debate, but I want to ask you a question;

First of all, I'm not denying Anoon Bondara's prodigious technical skill, but nevertheless, you have that fact that pre-TPM Sidious completely outclassed Maul in terms of saber mastery. And then again, you have the thing that Maul was capable of completely outclassing the most technically skilled lightsaber duelist in the order. Provided Anoon really was better than Yoda in terms of lightsaber skill, then, logically, at the time, Sidious could curbstomp Yoda in a lightsaber duel; however, then again, you have the thing that by the events of RotS, Sidious and Yoda were perfectly evenly matched in lightsaber combat ability. So- unless you think TPM Maul > RotS Sidious in terms of lightsaber ability, how do you explain this stuff?

And then again, you have the fact that TPM Maul was put on his ass by en enraged Padawan. Of course, Maul did defeat TPM Obi-Wan, but still... how come Maul could completely outclass a being of greater technical skill than Yoda and subsequently get put on his ass by a Padawan- albeit a talented one?

I don't know what to make out of this myself. I suppose it's possible that Yoda completely outclassed Anoon in speed or strength... I dunno.

I don't really buy that part about Anoon's skills being second to none. When I read the paragraph it comes from it seems like it is Darsha's thoughts, not absolute facts.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
can you quantify and substantiate 3 things for me
1) if those masters are actually inferior to maul as you say
2) if so how much weaker the 4 jedi masters are supposed to be than maul
3) how drained they were? were they at 99% 60%, 50% or what?>

because Maul outclassed Qui-Gon who was one of the best in the order. iv already mentioned he usually used to draw with Mace when they used to spar. thats on Mace's bio on starwars.com I think.

so Maul is stronger than the vast majority of jedis by a significant amount. I obviously cant give a figure of just how much stronger he is, but out of those jedis in question Ki-Adi-Mundi would be closest to Maul.

I cant give a figure of just how tired those jedis were. I just know Ki-Adi-Mundi said they were already exhausted when he reported the incident to the council.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Gideon, I'm not gonna get to this debate, but I want to ask you a question;

First of all, I'm not denying Anoon Bondara's prodigious technical skill, but nevertheless, you have that fact that pre-TPM Sidious completely outclassed Maul in terms of saber mastery. And then again, you have the thing that Maul was capable of completely outclassing the most technically skilled lightsaber duelist in the order. Provided Anoon really was better than Yoda in terms of lightsaber skill, then, logically, at the time, Sidious could curbstomp Yoda in a lightsaber duel; however, then again, you have the thing that by the events of RotS, Sidious and Yoda were perfectly evenly matched in lightsaber combat ability. So- unless you think TPM Maul > RotS Sidious in terms of lightsaber ability, how do you explain this stuff?

And then again, you have the fact that TPM Maul was put on his ass by en enraged Padawan. Of course, Maul did defeat TPM Obi-Wan, but still... how come Maul could completely outclass a being of greater technical skill than Yoda and subsequently get put on his ass by a Padawan- albeit a talented one?

I don't know what to make out of this myself. I suppose it's possible that Yoda completely outclassed Anoon in speed or strength... I dunno.

your confused here between technical skills and power. Dooku was a much better swordsman than Anakin (technically) but got beat by Anakin in a sword fight.

and i dnt see Sidious technical sword fighting skills, being FAR above Mauls. Maul had mastered Juyo.. there wasnt really nething more for Sidious to teach him in this department. Sidious outclasses Maul though because hes too fast and strong for him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
your confused here between technical skills and power. Dooku was a much better swordsman than Anakin (technically) but got beat by Anakin in a sword fight.

and i dnt see Sidious technical sword fighting skills, being FAR above Mauls. Maul had mastered Juyo.. there wasnt really nething more for Sidious to teach him in this department. Sidious outclasses Maul though because hes too fast and strong for him.

Sidious was a master of every weapon and every form, as is Yoda (I believe it was stated on Star Wars Insider 62, but I'm far from sure)- Yoda favors Ataru, however, and Sidious, in my opinion, favors Juyo, although it's very much open to debate.

I would agree with you, however- I don't think Sidious was DA SHIT in terms of technical ability- it's very possible that Dooku has more technical skill than he does in terms of lightsaber skill. However, you have it that Sidious is indeed DA SHIT in terms of force-enhanced speed, reflexes, and agility.

Overall, I agree with you- certainly Dooku is far more technically skilled (and I'd say that he is possibly that most refined person in terms of his form of choice we've seen in the PT) than Anakin, but Anakin overpowered him. Physically.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Gideon, I'm not gonna get to this debate, but I want to ask you a question;

Very well.

First of all, I'm not denying Anoon Bondara's prodigious technical skill, but nevertheless, you have that fact that pre-TPM Sidious completely outclassed Maul in terms of saber mastery.

First, there are two different schools of thought on this: Nai Fohl tells me that Darth Maul was attacked by his master, effortlessly disarmed, and then was taunted with the fact that Sidious had been training a replacement; Maul then retrieved his lightsaber and attacked with renewed vigor (tapping into one's rage can give one an incredible, temporary advantage: i.e. Obi-Wan Kenobi versus Maul, Luke Skywalker versus Vader) and Sidious "barely deflected" the blows [this supported by the Wookieepedia article] before disarming him a second time. The second school of thought is one subscribed by Lightsnake that Sidious was in control the entire time and laid the smackdown on Maul, despite his rage, with a training saber. I've yet to see the source itself, so I don't know which one is accurate.

Second, do not confuse technical ability with overall combat prowess. Kas'im was a swordsman that outclassed Darth Bane in every manner possible, yet still ultimately lost the duel, because Force prowess > technical prowess. I am not suggesting that Anoon Bondara would defeat Yoda in an all out fight or even in a lightsaber duel, but the fact remains that according to the omniscient narrator, Bondara's technical skills with a lightsaber are second to none in the entire Order, and for a Jedi Master whose career exceeds eight centuries, I doubt the last thirteen years of his profession would yield any significant advancement in ability.

Third, "pre-TPM Sidious" would likely be the most talented incarnation of Sidious as a swordsman. After he became Chancellor, he had no time for training or maintaining swordsmanship and had his lightsaber buried in a statue. While his strength in the Force undoubtably increased, thus making him an overall more terrifying combatant, there is nothing to suggest that his technical ability continued to advance. At best, it stayed the same. At worst, it declined.

And then again, you have the thing that Maul was capable of completely outclassing the most technically skilled lightsaber duelist in the order.

Don't take it up with me; take it up with the omniscient narrator of Shadow Hunter.

Provided Anoon really was better than Yoda in terms of lightsaber skill, then, logically, at the time, Sidious could curbstomp Yoda in a lightsaber duel;

I'm certain that this is a logic trail that brings a smile to your face, but it's irretrievably false. As a technical swordsman, Bondara was unmatched, his skills were more refined than any in the Order. As a combatant, he lacks Yoda's considerably greater Force attunement and mastery, which are even more essential to a warrior in a lightsaber duel.

however, then again, you have the thing that by the events of RotS, Sidious and Yoda were perfectly evenly matched in lightsaber combat ability.

And as I said, the logic trail you use is false.

So- unless you think TPM Maul > RotS Sidious in terms of lightsaber ability, how do you explain this stuff?

By accepting a mentality that accounts for all of the facts.

And then again, you have the fact that TPM Maul was put on his ass by en enraged Padawan. Of course, Maul did defeat TPM Obi-Wan, but still... how come Maul could completely outclass a being of greater technical skill than Yoda and subsequently get put on his ass by a Padawan- albeit a talented one?

Several factors you need to consider.

1.) According to the New Essential Guide to Characters and darthsith19, Darth Maul had been injured or weakened prior to the duel and was thus not in full form.

2.) Obi-Wan happened to catch Maul off guard and merely pressed the advantage; his own thoughts in the Essential Guide to the Force make it explicitly clear that he was still losing and that it was a temporary advantage.

3.) Most important of all, Obi-Wan was pissed off. Haven't you watched the movies at all? Emperor Palpatine makes it explicitly clear during Revenge of the Sith and then Return of the Jedi that giving into one's aggressive feelings allows for an incredibly potent (if temporary) advantage over such things. Giving into his rage allowed Anakin Skywalker to become such a formidable opponent that he defeated Count Dooku, Luke Skywalker overpowered Darth Vader -- a Sith Lord whose mastery of the Force, swordsmanship, and physical strength greatly exceeded his own, and thus Obi-Wan with Darth Maul.

I don't know what to make out of this myself. I suppose it's possible that Yoda completely outclassed Anoon in speed or strength... I dunno.

Bingo.

Originally posted by Gideon
Very well.

First, there are two different schools of thought on this: Nai Fohl tells me that Darth Maul was attacked by his master, effortlessly disarmed, and then was taunted with the fact that Sidious had been training a replacement; Maul then retrieved his lightsaber and attacked with renewed vigor (tapping into one's rage can give one an incredible, temporary advantage: i.e. Obi-Wan Kenobi versus Maul, Luke Skywalker versus Vader) and Sidious "barely deflected" the blows [this supported by the Wookieepedia article] before disarming him a second time. The second school of thought is one subscribed by Lightsnake that Sidious was in control the entire time and laid the smackdown on Maul, despite his rage, with a training saber. I've yet to see the source itself, so I don't know which one is accurate.

Second, do not confuse technical ability with overall combat prowess. Kas'im was a swordsman that outclassed Darth Bane in every manner possible, yet still ultimately lost the duel, because Force prowess > technical prowess. I am not suggesting that Anoon Bondara would defeat Yoda in an all out fight or even in a lightsaber duel, but the fact remains that according to the omniscient narrator, Bondara's technical skills with a lightsaber are second to none in the entire Order, and for a Jedi Master whose career exceeds eight centuries, I doubt the last thirteen years of his profession would yield any significant advancement in ability.

Third, "pre-TPM Sidious" would likely be the most talented incarnation of Sidious as a swordsman. After he became Chancellor, he had no time for training or maintaining swordsmanship and had his lightsaber buried in a statue. While his strength in the Force undoubtably increased, thus making him an overall more terrifying combatant, there is nothing to suggest that his technical ability continued to advance. At best, it stayed the same. At worst, it declined.

Don't take it up with me; take it up with the omniscient narrator of Shadow Hunter.

I'm certain that this is a logic trail that brings a smile to your face, but it's irretrievably false. As a technical swordsman, Bondara was unmatched, his skills were more refined than any in the Order. As a combatant, he lacks Yoda's considerably greater Force attunement and mastery, which are even more essential to a warrior in a lightsaber duel.

And as I said, the logic trail you use is false.

By accepting a mentality that accounts for all of the facts.

Several factors you need to consider.

1.) According to the New Essential Guide to Characters and darthsith19, Darth Maul had been injured or weakened prior to the duel and was thus not in full form.

2.) Obi-Wan happened to catch Maul off guard and merely pressed the advantage; his own thoughts in the Essential Guide to the Force make it explicitly clear that he was still losing and that it was a temporary advantage.

3.) Most important of all, Obi-Wan was pissed off. Haven't you watched the movies at all? Emperor Palpatine makes it explicitly clear during Revenge of the Sith and then Return of the Jedi that giving into one's aggressive feelings allows for an incredibly potent (if temporary) advantage over such things. Giving into his rage allowed Anakin Skywalker to become such a formidable opponent that he defeated Count Dooku, Luke Skywalker overpowered Darth Vader -- a Sith Lord whose mastery of the Force, swordsmanship, and physical strength greatly exceeded his own, and thus Obi-Wan with Darth Maul.

Bingo.

It all makes sense now! 😄

xD. Seriously, tho, I think Sidious' technically skill possibly declined between the events of TPM and RotS; not having trained in 13 years tends to have that effect. However, there's also the matter that Sidious' forte in lightsaber combat- his speed and agility- are all force-powered, and seeing as Sidious clearly enhanced his force prowess, at least, it's logical to assume that at least his speed could've increased between that point. According to Maul, Sidious was capable of moving his lightsaber at speeds well beyond what he could see; later on, in RotS, Sidious was capable of doing the same to Yoda and Mace in terms of lightsaber combat, as confirmed by the novel.

Gideon do you have a way of quantifying how weakened maul's injuries made him?
was he at 90% 60%........50%?..............?...........
secondly how do we know that maul wasnt using his leg injury to push im forward and give him a boost, you know how masochistic sith can be 🙂

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Sidious was a master of every weapon and every form, as is Yoda (I believe it was stated on Star Wars Insider 62,

im sure he was... but Maul was pretty damn close to that (talking technical skill here only folks)..

i mean maybe not a master of every form, but a high level master of multiple forms.. there are only 6 other forms, so logically multiple should cover most of them.

and then he mastered juyo, the deadliest form and combined his juyo mastery with mastery of a single lightsaber, a double bladed lightsaber, and even 2 lightsabers in combat. so Maul had the different weapons covered as well.

so I dnt really see how "Technically" Sidious was Far beyond Maul. Because as you can see, there wasnt much room for Maul to improve... Had Maul survived TPM he most likely would have continued his training concentrating on improving his Force Mastery and connection to the Force. Would have been very interesting to see just how powerful Maul would have become.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
Gideon do you have a way of quantifying how weakened maul's injuries made him?

I recall reading that it was bad enough for him not to tell Sidious that he was hurt so wasn't just a scrape or a balck and blue mark.

In TPM? He tears a muscle in his leg escaping - yeah, running away - from Tuskens.

That novel should thrown into the sun.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
im sure he was... but Maul was pretty damn close to that (talking technical skill here only folks)..

i mean maybe not a master of every form, but a high level master of multiple forms.. there are only 6 other forms, so logically multiple should cover most of them.

and then he mastered juyo, the deadliest form and combined his juyo mastery with mastery of a single lightsaber, a double bladed lightsaber, and even 2 lightsabers in combat. so Maul had the different weapons covered as well.

so I dnt really see how "Technically" Sidious was Far beyond Maul. Because as you can see, there wasnt much room for Maul to improve... Had Maul survived TPM he most likely would have continued his training concentrating on improving his Force Mastery and connection to the Force. Would have been very interesting to see just how powerful Maul would have become.

I didn't disagree with Maul not being too far behind the top dogs in terms of technical skill.

Originally posted by Faunus
In TPM? He tears a muscle in his leg escaping - yeah, running away - from Tuskens.

I thought he got hurt during the fight with the tuskens then realized he was hurt while running so he can try and stop Amidala from escaping tattooine.

Something of interest:

Master Bondara epitomized what Darsha hoped to become one day. The Twi'lek Jedi Master lived in the Force. Always still and complacent as a pool of unknown depth, he was nevertheless one of the best fighters in the order. His skill with a lightsaber was second to none. Darsha hoped that one day she might be able to exhibit a tenth of Anoon Bondara's adeptness.

The Twi'lek Jedi's leap, guided by the Force, landed him squarely behind Maul on the rear engine housing of the T- shaped bike. The action took Maul by surprise; he had not expected such a courageous, if foolhardy, deed.

Unexpected as the move was, however, Maul was still able to block the slash of the other's lightsaber with his own energy blade. He quickly activated the speeder's autopilot, then twisted around in the saddle, thrusting his weapon at the Jedi's chest. The Jedi blocked the blow and countered with another.

Maul knew the battle could not continue this way. The speeder bike's autopilot was not sophisticated enough to chart a safe course at high speed through the torturous windings of the surface streets. He grabbed the handlebar and jerked the speeder toward a docking platform on a nearby building, about thirty meters above the street. They shot by the skycar, which had slowed after the Jedi left it, and rose toward the shelf. As the ledge came within range of the autopilot's seniors, the speeder slowed, then settled down to a landing on the extruded slab of ferrocrete.

The Sith and the Jedi leapt from the speeder bike onto the platform to continue their battle. The dock-Ing ledge was only about ten meters by fifteen, barely enough room to maneuver in. Maul knew he had to dispatch the Jedi quickly, before Pavan once again vanished into the labyrinth of Coruscant's downlevels. He pressed the attack viciously, blocking and thrusting, the twin radiant blades spinning a web of light about him.

The Jedi was obviously a master of the teras kasi fighting arts, as well, judging by the smooth way he parried and counterattacked. Still, within the first few moments of the engagement, Darth Maul knew that he himself was the superior fighter. He could tell that the Jedi knew it, too, but Maul also knew that it didn't matter. The Jedi was committed to stopping the Sith, or at the very least slowing him down enough to let the others get away, even if it meant giving his own life to do so.

Maul bared his teeth. He would not lose his quarry again! He doubled his efforts, pressing the attack hard, hammering away at the Twi'lek's defenses. The Jedi gave ground, but Maul was still unable to slash through his guard.

...

Darth Maul had seen the grim realization in the eyes of his foe: the knowledge that the Twi'lek could not defeat his adversary. Once defeat was conceded in the mind, its reality was inevitable. It was only a matter of time.

He pressed his attack to an even higher intensity, driving the Jedi back toward his speeder bike, intending to pin him between the dual-bladed lightsaber and the bike. With his movements thus constricted, it would be mere moments before the Twi'lek's ten-tacled head was separated from his neck.

But then he saw the desperation in the other's face suddenly give way to realization, and then to triumph. Quickly, before Maul could intuit what was intended, the Jedi whirled toward the speeder bike, raised his lightsaber-and plunged it to the hilt into the bike's repulsor drive housing.

Maul realized his suicidal intention, but too late.

And then there's this:

It had been exhilarating to know that he, Darth Maul, was better in combat than his hated foes. He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu. That would be a true test of his skill.

While all of this sheds serious doubt on Anoon's status, it doesn't do all that much to Maul's. The rest of the book is basically dedicated to how much of an uberling he is. That said, it would seem now that there're characters - aside from the 'Big Four,' Anakin, and Obi-Wan - in the PT era who would be capable of defeating him in combat. If a TPM Mace Windu or Plo Koon would be considered great in that Order, the likes of Agen Kolar, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, and General Grievous might be able to do the same. I'll have to locate the Maul vs. Sidious duel before elaborating on that further, and I'll post the passage when I do.

It isn't the omniscient narrator putting Anoon Bondara on a lower tier than Mace Windu or Plo Koon, it's Maul himself. That doesn't suggest in any way, shape, or form that Koon is superior to Bondara [though I will grant you that Maul is], and we are arguing from technical skill, as the first passage you cited named Bondara "one of the best fighters in the Order" despite how his skill with a lightsaber was "second to none".

Some people apparently don't undrestand the meaning of techincal skill.
Just because a warrior has superior technical skill it does not mean, nor suggests in any sort of way, that he is an actual superior duelist.

For example, LeBron James may have a better technique in dribbling the ball, but that doesn't mean he possesses the ability or the talent necessary to defeat someone like Kobe Bryant one-on-one.

Technical skill does not equal strength, power, speed, potential, nor any of the sort. Plus, these may very well be more relevant on an actual duel than technical skill. Hence, Bondara > Yoda is completely false, since Yoda is his superior in all of the other abilities mentioned above.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
I didn't disagree with Maul not being too far behind the top dogs in terms of technical skill.

oh ok. and I agree with you that Dooku was probably the most technically skilled swordsman out of the PT's top dogs.