Reed Richards + Batman + Kang vs MU and DC earth

Originally posted by Bentley
As I stated, Kang's strength is using warfare, divide and conquer tactics. If he cannot use them in this fight -if everyone knows about them and fights them at the same time- it would be an uphill battle.

Well as I mentioned Kang has tech with serious cloaking ability. If Doc Strange and Silver Surfer couldnt detect them who can? They dont neccesarily have to use an army they could just find objects of power as well.

Originally posted by Bentley

They have a shot but in one year I don't think they can get a conclusive win. Don't forget about the Spectre.

Spectre is marvel earth?

The spear of Destiny can handle the Spectre.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well as I mentioned Kang has tech with serious cloaking ability. If Doc Strange and Silver Surfer couldnt detect them who can? They dont neccesarily have to use an army they could just find objects of power as well.

As I have said several times without finding an answer, it depends if they are going to sneak into each planet in a comic plot fashion or if they are just going to face opponents who will resist them and just them. I also assumed that they would have no aid of power items they couldn't create themselves, because that kind of plot device way of winning is a little against the point of putting characters against each other (I mean, will Kang travel to the point where the Infinity Guantlet was in the ground to pick it up and own everyone? No, he wouldn't, he loves challenge and here he would try to win by himself. Same for Batman up to a point, he doesn't hide behind tech all that much).

Again, neither SS nor Doctor Strange were looking actively for them, they were just passing by. Also, cloaking won't win this battle, they need an amazing power output which they don't have. Can they overpower the two earths? Not without enough time, and I think (again, that they can win but) they don't have enough time.

Originally posted by Bentley
As I have said several times without finding an answer, it depends if they are going to sneak into each planet in a comic plot fashion or if they are just going to face opponents who will resist them and just them.

I know they have. I haven't read The Kang Dynasty but I know Kang has conquered many worlds so he should have enough troops to put up a fight against DC and Marvel earth, maybe not enough to win but maybe enough to be used as a distraction.

I can't see why Kang, Reed and Batman can't come up with a divide and conquer plan. Batman knows DCU very well and Reed knows marvel very well.

Originally posted by Bentley

I also assumed that they would have no aid of power items they couldn't create themselves, because that kind of plot device way of winning is a little against the point of putting characters against each other (I mean, will Kang travel to the point where the Infinity Guantlet was in the ground to pick it up and own everyone? No, he wouldn't, he loves challenge and here he would try to win by himself. Same for Batman up to a point, he doesn't hide behind tech all that much).

That example is a bit extreme but I don't see whats wrong with them trying to get an infinity gem for example. The gem won't give them the win but its an example

Originally posted by Bentley

Again, neither SS nor Doctor Strange were looking actively for them, they were just passing by.

This is the first time you stated that, no need to be a smartass. Ok good point but it was still impressive. Can't remember what happened and I can't be arsed to go back and read it but from what I remember they should have been able to detect them even if they were not looking for them.

Originally posted by Bentley

Also, cloaking won't win this battle,

I know but it could be argued that they have the capability to hide if they upgraded that stuff.

Originally posted by Bentley

they need an amazing power output which they don't have. Can they overpower the two earths? Not without enough time, and I think (again, that they can win but) they don't have enough time.

Maybe but im betting those 3 could find something within a year and a half.

Team goes down

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Team goes down

Defintely possible.

You know what I just got thinking. Im pretty sure we would agree that Batman at present could possibly deafeat The JLA with prep and also other teams. The thing is we have to remember that when certain people are defeated that their resources will be taken.

For example if Auqman is defeated DC Atlantis could be controlled. If Kyle id defeated Reed and Kang could analyse Oan tech. If Superman is defeats they could get the fortress of solitude etc.

What are the rules anyway? Do they get ported into Marvel or DC earth after the prep time is done? Do they face the opponents in a straight forum fashion or everything passes normally as if they were in a comic book world?

I ask these because if they can use stealth, they can indeed, get advantages and try to improve their chances. In a straight fight they don't have the advantage.

I consider myself to be well versed about Kang, I've read more than half the issues he has appeared into, and know most of the tech he has displayed.

We've never seen a Kang "not-holding back" except maybe in Avengers Forever, he always plays with his food and engages combat in such a fashion that his opponent is in the ability to fight but is bested. Since I cannot really vouch for Kang "going all out" -it has never been shown so it would be speculation from my part-, I have to assume he will fight in his regular fashion. In which case I seriously doubt he could get the firepower to win this in a single year.

I think it is within the power and the resources of those three to take the two earths down, but in the time frame they would be defeated.

But again, who knows? Kang going all out could bring armies from several realities to improve his tech and wage war for him. We just don't have on panel feats to prove it could happen.

Originally posted by Bentley
What are the rules anyway? Do they get ported into Marvel or DC earth after the prep time is done? Do they face the opponents in a straight forum fashion or everything passes normally as if they were in a comic book world?

Well my intention was that they spend 2 years planning and then they decide on best course of action. Im assuming they can work together as a team. Not sure what you mean by passes normally but I was thinking one day the heroes wake up and find themselves under attack...or they may not even know when they are being attacked....ermm hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by Bentley

I ask these because if they can use stealth, they can indeed, get advantages and try to improve their chances. In a straight fight they don't have the advantage.

I consider myself to be well versed about Kang, I've read more than half the issues he has appeared into, and know most of the tech he has displayed.

We've never seen a Kang "not-holding back" except maybe in Avengers Forever, he always plays with his food and engages combat in such a fashion that his opponent is in the ability to fight but is bested. Since I cannot really vouch for Kang "going all out" -it has never been shown so it would be speculation from my part-, I have to assume he will fight in his regular fashion. In which case I seriously doubt he could get the firepower to win this in a single year.

I think it is within the power and the resources of those three to take the two earths down, but in the time frame they would be defeated.

But again, who knows? Kang going all out could bring armies from several realities to improve his tech and wage war for him. We just don't have on panel feats to prove it could happen.

I suspect that what would be used is a combination of stealth and brute force. Kang uses his tech and armies to fight the heroes, while Bruce and Reed work behind the scenes.

If they can use an stealth attack, they can probably try something like replacing people by OMACs and using the Sentinel technology time-trick to control them, mass-produce them and use them to target strategical attacks. I think they have way too many options to choose just one to go by.

I think they could take Marvel Earth, again (stretching an optimistic time frame), but DC would cause more problems in my opinion. Its my opinion that Reed is the top hero in Marvel, while Batman is seriously outclassed when it comes to serious threats (Imperiex, the Sinistro Corps, etc.) in which he is an excellent support, but not nearly enough plot-devicy as Reed. And since Kang and Reed don't have experience against DC, I'm not sure if they can do good.

Originally posted by Bentley
If they can use an stealth attack, they can probably try something like replacing people by OMACs and using the Sentinel technology time-trick to control them, mass-produce them and use them to target strategical attacks. I think they have way too many options to choose just one to go by.

Of course.

Originally posted by Bentley

I think they could take Marvel Earth, again (stretching an optimistic time frame), but DC would cause more problems in my opinion. Its my opinion that Reed is the top hero in Marvel, while Batman is seriously outclassed when it comes to serious threats (Imperiex, the Sinistro Corps, etc.) in which he is an excellent support, but not nearly enough plot-devicy as Reed. And since Kang and Reed don't have experience against DC, I'm not sure if they can do good.

I think you're right but bare in mind this could be due to lack of resources even Doom benefitted from Kangs tech. Also Batman has been stated as saying something like 'If only I could get my hands on a motherbox', which implies that he can understand more advanced tech than his possesses he just needs to get his hands on it. Giving Batman Kangs tech will be like upgrading him.

Also bare in mind that eventhough Reed and Kang don't know DC Batman does and even if he is lacking in skills and resources the other two will simply give him what he is lacking.

Reed wouldn't add too much in the magic department, and DC is overly magical and Batman is not all that good against it either.

To me magic is the deciding factor for DC.

Again, the team is against way too much. Firstly I wouldnt put too much stock in Batman taking out the JLA. Who hasnt solo'ed the JLA at this point? And to be fair, a lot of the tactics that have been used against them the 352 times they have been solo'ed shouldnt work twice. I know if I was beaten five times in a row using the same method, I'd prepare for it next time. There are just way too many variables to consider. I mean how long would it take to prepare a fool proof plan to beat JUST the Juggernaut? Or JUST Thor? Keep in mind now that Thor has Odin's power, and all of Asgard is on Marvel earth. These guys would need some serious time just to deal with them. I pointed out earlier that Dr. Strange by himself could give these guys all sorts of trouble, and of course Phantom was nice enough to ignore that. Someone else mentioned that none of these guys are familiar with magic, which is true. Personally I think Kang is pretty over rated here. He hasnt done as much as say Dr. Doom despite having a lot more resources available to him.

Originally posted by Bentley
Reed wouldn't add too much in the magic department, and DC is overly magical and Batman is not all that good against it either.

To me magic is the deciding factor for DC.

True but if you get an artfiact that is powerful enough then it won't matter. I think Kang has some famailirity with magic/cosmic device so he could help in this area. Hell im pretty sure they could get people wo work for them that are.

Originally posted by redhotrash
Again, the team is against way too much. Firstly I wouldnt put too much stock in Batman taking out the JLA. Who hasnt solo'ed the JLA at this point? And to be fair, a lot of the tactics that have been used against them the 352 times they have been solo'ed shouldnt work twice. I know if I was beaten five times in a row using the same method, I'd prepare for it next time. There are just way too many variables to consider. I mean how long would it take to prepare a fool proof plan to beat JUST the Juggernaut? Or JUST Thor? Keep in mind now that Thor has Odin's power, and all of Asgard is on Marvel earth. These guys would need some serious time just to deal with them. I pointed out earlier that Dr. Strange by himself could give these guys all sorts of trouble, and of course Phantom was nice enough to ignore that. Someone else mentioned that none of these guys are familiar with magic, which is true. Personally I think Kang is pretty over rated here. He hasnt done as much as say Dr. Doom despite having a lot more resources available to him.

I didn't ignore anytthing you pain in the neck if you dont think they can win thats fine, some people agree some people dont.

Actually we dont really know how powerful Strange is at the moment, he seems to have been replaced by a Skrull, yes it was stupid for you to say that Strange would solo the team when you said it. At that current time Strange has been shown to be a shadow of him his former self.

Saying what is batman going to do was still retarded and you kept on going on about how Knag conquered a future earth when thats not happened please go and whine somewhere else. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing I have a problem with you acting like a dick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Strange#Powers_and_abilities

It has been recently revealed that since Strange has failed in his duties as Sorcerer Supreme, he no longer holds the title, and hence, is why he has not appeared in Secret Invasion so far. Bendis also said that in Dark Reign it will be revealed who the new Sorcerer Supreme is

Not sure if hes a skull but that certainly doesnt help you're agrument.

Originally posted by redhotrash
Personally I think Kang is pretty over rated here. He hasnt done as much as say Dr. Doom despite having a lot more resources available to him.

If you say he can take those two earths in one year and a half, yes he is being overrated.

Its also true that Doom has done more, despite the fact Kang has conquered earth and saved all reality already. You have to consider that not only Doom is the more popular character (and because of that, he gets included much more often by writers) but also that both characters have entirely different motivations: Doom wants absolute power, Kang wants thrill.

I think that Kang's knowledge of cosmic devices is rather limited, as he has declared "A cosmic containment unit doesn't exist in my time", before Infinity War its safe to say Kang has never seen a cosmic cube before.

Originally posted by Bentley
If you say he can take those two earths in one year and a half, yes he is being overrated.

Its also true that Doom has done more, despite the fact Kang has conquered earth and saved all reality already. You have to consider that not only Doom is the more popular character (and because of that, he gets included much more often by writers) but also that both characters have entirely different motivations: Doom wants absolute power, Kang wants thrill.

I think that Kang's knowledge of cosmic devices is rather limited, as he has declared "A cosmic containment unit doesn't exist in my time", before Infinity War its safe to say Kang has never seen a cosmic cube before.

I defintely think that Kang, batman and Reed can take aout the super teams and armies. I think if they can create a big enough army whilst concentrating on defeating the magical aspect of the DCU then they can win.

Also its been said that Aquman was wanted as a meber of the JLA to help with mystical threats. taking him out will be no problem and accessing and using his knowledge will be very useful.

That is hopeful thinking at best in my opinion, Reed is not just bad with magic, he is awful against it (see the Unthinkable arc) and Batman is not going to be pawning high level wizards with information he doesn't have during prep to begin with (if I don't think they do good with a year and a half, much less during the attack).

Kang has already stated that bringing an army to invade a planet would just join everyone against the common threat -like in the skrull invasion-, so they wouldn't produce and army, it would be something like a doomsday device or a stealth attack (or warfare if Kang gets his way). I think that Batman lacks of the skill to build such doomsday device, so it would come down to Reed doing something, and getting pawned by magic.

Its not just about having three geniuses but also to know their limitations and strengths. In this case, Doom would've been a better aid for team since he has experience with magic -and still, nothing DC level-.

Dr. Strange, at his peak, could cause the team all sorts of problems. I was going by overall showings, not just the most recent ones.

Originally posted by Bentley
That is hopeful thinking at best in my opinion, Reed is not just bad with magic, he is awful against it (see the Unthinkable arc) and Batman is not going to be pawning high level wizards with information he doesn't have during prep to begin with (if I don't think they do good with a year and a half, much less during the attack).

Kang has already stated that bringing an army to invade a planet would just join everyone against the common threat -like in the skrull invasion-, so they wouldn't produce and army, it would be something like a doomsday device or a stealth attack (or warfare if Kang gets his way). I think that Batman lacks of the skill to build such doomsday device, so it would come down to Reed doing something, and getting pawned by magic.

Its not just about having three geniuses but also to know their limitations and strengths. In this case, Doom would've been a better aid for team since he has experience with magic -and still, nothing DC level-.

Ok good point but there are still ways to get around this.

1. Powerful artifact. You might not be an expert of guerilla warfare but if you use a nuke you will win. Reed isnt an expert on magic but he does seem to understand cosmic cube etc and those items seem to overlap with magic.

2 Extremely advanced tech. Batman claimed that all he needed was 10 days to undertand a motherbox. I have seen some tech in DCU have a waekness for magic but I can't see this happening with a motherbox because it has a link with the source. Of course you can be defeated but it shouldn't have a special weakness to magic.

Also Kangs tech has been shown to be able to counter magic (invsible to Dr Stranges scans)

3. Using Aquaman. Since Batman has already been able to mentally affect Aquaman its possible they could mind control him and use him to help them against DCU magic. Aquaman was used as the resident occultist in the JLU instead of Zatanna.

I also think that Batman has anti-magic protocols and actually has some knowledge of magic, its seems he maybe be able to take out DCu magic users through other means.....but this is not concerete

Originally posted by redhotrash
Dr. Strange, at his peak, could cause the team all sorts of problems. I was going by overall showings, not just the most recent ones.

If all his recent showings are crap it implies hes weaker.