Originally posted by queeq
Please quote me on that and maybe I will take you seriously.
Quote you on what? That you think Chrisanity is superior?
Originally posted by inimalist
here, I got it:Phantom Zone: Do you believe that, while it may have gotten some ideas from what came before, the new testament contains things that are novel ideas?
When you say novel...you mean new? Well its possible......... ( yeah I know you adressed this point earleir but I was just too tired to respond)
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
When you say novel...you mean new? Well its possible......... ( yeah I know you adressed this point earleir but I was just too tired to respond)
totally, and i wasn't trying to start it up again. Queeq has just made the "nobody thinks there is anything new or positive to come from Christianity" argument several times, and I was really starting to wonder where that came from.
If you don't, thats cool, I'm just sort of interested in the thread not derailing, I seem to like this topic 🙂
Originally posted by inimalist
totally, and i wasn't trying to start it up again. Queeq has just made the "nobody thinks there is anything new or positive to come from Christianity" argument several times, and I was really starting to wonder where that came from.If you don't, thats cool, I'm just sort of interested in the thread not derailing, I seem to like this topic 🙂
Well.....its just that I find it hard to believe that anythings new. I used to belive in things being 'new' or 'unique' but its like whenever you think somethings new or unique you find somebody else has done it already. What novel things are you thinking about?
I actually agree with you entirely. However, I just sort of find that a self defeating line of reasoning.
to be totally correct, I'd put it more like "the largest" or "most important" contributions to the development of an idea. Like, its not to say that there weren't nations prior to Christian Europe that had a clear philosophy of a divide between church and state (EDIT: this was poorly worded: there is plenty of reason to believe that in Greek and Roman times, there was a divide, if less strict than today), the line of "render unto Caesar" and the philosophy that was born in Europe after the fall of Greece and pagan worship played a far larger role in developing this idea, thus to me at least, passing some arbitrary "threshold of authorship" for the Christian world, and provoking me to say the idea was originated there.
Originally posted by inimalist
I actually agree with you entirely. However, I just sort of find that a self defeating line of reasoning.
Well yeah. To be fair though it depends on how you use that type of reasoning. If you are using that type of logic to make a more balanced view then I think thats fine. I think earlier on this thread you were talking about Islamic contributions to society and then talked about how muslims benefited from learning from The Greeks and Hindus. Obvoulsy you were not trying to claim superority for anybody but to make a more blanced view.
Originally posted by inimalist
to be totally correct, I'd put it more like "the largest" or "most important" contributions to the development of an idea. Like, its not to say that there weren't nations prior to Christian Europe that had a clear philosophy of a divide between church and state (EDIT: this was poorly worded: there is plenty of reason to believe that in Greek and Roman times, there was a divide, if less strict than today), the line of "render unto Caesar" and the philosophy that was born in Europe after the fall of Greece and pagan worship played a far larger role in developing this idea, thus to me at least, passing some arbitrary "threshold of authorship" for the Christian world, and provoking me to say the idea was originated there.
Hmmm not sure how to respond to this. You are saying that seperation between church and state played a far greater role after paganism and therefore to an extent we can see Christanity as the orginator of modern democracy? If so don't you kinda agree with queeq?
Originally posted by inimalist
totally, and i wasn't trying to start it up again. Queeq has just made the "nobody thinks there is anything new or positive to come from Christianity" argument several times, and I was really starting to wonder where that came from.
Are you joking? A great number of posters on this forum are violently opposed to the idea of Christianity having done anything good or innovative while never leveling the same sort of criticism toward other faiths. Or at the very least those people have convinced themselves that anyone who says something good about Christianity is claiming it is a universal good that has never done anything wrong.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I am a bit lost. What's the argument exactly? That modern enlightenment ideals developed in predominantly Christian European countries? Cause that's true. Is the argument that Christianity was the reason for that development? Cause I'd quite like some prove of that, it seems especially the Catholic church, was, on the contrary, pretty bad for humane developements in the Middle Ages and beyond.
Anyone?
Please?
Originally posted by queeq
Greek democracy: rights to vote was for a limited group of priviliged men. Plus you had to be GREEK all over to join.
Originally posted by queeq
Romans: You had to be Roman, rich landowner or high military to be part of the Senate and everything non-Roman was considered inferior. Women did not hold any official position in either Senate, military or government. Apart from tha occasional temporary regent-like position when a successor was too young, but a general/consul would be the effective ruler of the Empire.
Originally posted by queeq
Celts, Germans: all tribal people. We have no written sources from these people themselves, only Roman (i.e. secondary) sources and from those writing a picture arises of a tribal society with tribal kings/leaders. They competed for power among themselves and for their own culture. When tribes would get bigger or if a king managed to unite a lot of tribes, there was just monrachy with violent competitions for power (See Alaric, Althaulf, Geseric - all killed by competitors for the throne).
Originally posted by queeq
Indeed: only men, and only GREEK men. Very very equal indeed. And rights as a citizen did not mean you had a say in government.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Don't get it, is your argument that people can do great things and at the same time, independently, go to church and maybe even believe in God?
And even be devoutly Christian. Yes.
People here will fight to deny that. But maybe there's a good reason that every time someone mentions a positive thing that Christianity accomplished or may have accomplished they get mainly a torrent of "Crusades", "fundamentalist homophobia", "delusional", "xxxx did it first" or something in the same theme whereas threads on paganism, Judaism, Buddhism and such never get "human sacrificing baby killers", "crazy people", "sacred of made up monsters", "xxxx did it before they did".
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosWell, if they deny that they are idiots. In fact, I'd say it is even possible that someone is inspired by their Christianity to do great things (whether they could have found other inspiration or not, is arguable, though).
And even be devoutly Christian. Yes.People here will fight to deny that. But maybe there's a good reason that every time someone mentions a positive thing that Christianity accomplished or may have accomplished they get mainly a torrent of "Crusades", "fundamentalist homophobia", "delusional", "xxxx did it first" or something in the same theme whereas threads on paganism, Judaism, Buddhism and such never get "human sacrificing baby killers", "crazy people", "sacred of made up monsters", "xxxx did it before they did".
But it seemed to me the argument was about Christian Beliefs generally causing such advancements and Christian Based Governments and Nations being a breeding groud for such innovations...which I just don't feel is supported by facts.
Originally posted by Bardock42
But it seemed to me the argument was about Christian Beliefs generally causing such advancements and Christian Based Governments and Nations being a breeding groud for such innovations...which I just don't feel is supported by facts.
queeq seemed to be arguing that Christianity was a major contributor to the development of democracy. I don't believe he claimed it was the only one just one that provided many of the basic ideas (ie everyone is equal in the eyes of God) which were far from widespread beforehand. I agree history has shown Christian governments are far cry from having a tendency to effect positive change but that doesn't alter the reasonable idea that Christian belief had a major impact on developing democracy and equal rights.
Moreover the democracy of the modern world is based mainly on Greek and Christian precepts (in practice more of the former in philosophy more of the latter) rather than on pagan beliefs, which is what the French guy was saying I think. Even if pagans had advanced democratic systems long before Christianity, which is arguable at best, that history was stamped out by Christianity and had very little effect on later political thought.
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
They didn't. Women rights in Celtic and Greek society were greater than women in Christian society until about the 1600s.
In Greece voting rights were extended only the land owning, native born male citizens who had never been slaves were considered to be citizens while women were trained to be housekeepers and mothers. Very advanced view of democracy and women there. I don't know enough about the Celts to discuss what they thought of women or democracy.
I'll bring up again the issue of how influential pagans were in getting women's rights in modern times.