Church before state.

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
However, thats about weighing up the possibilities.

Question: Follow the Pope before the State?

Outcome 1: The Pope is not Christ's representative and thus your punishment in jail for breaking the law is not going to be compensated. You may loose your liberty or life and all for nothing.

Outcome 2: The Pope is Christ's representative and thus your punishment in jail for breaking the law will be compensated. You may loose your liberty or life but you will receive tenfold in heaven.

Or

Outcome 3: The Pope is not Christ's representative and thus your punishment in jail for breaking the law is not going to be compensated.

In fact, Religion X was the one true religion, not Catholicism. Hence all non-believers of Religion X spend eternity in hell.

You will loose your liberty and life, and all for nothing.

*Religion X could be one of many, so good luck with the right one.

then again God can see if you stick to your faith (keyword there faith) those with the knowledge and refuse it are condemned correct? Those without the knowledge but stick to there faith should be okay....(yeah yeah I know my religion says use moderation dont whistle at hotties etc..Im not a christian poster child) but thats my view guess thats outcome 4?...lol

The doctrine of infalibility only applies to matters of faith and morals concerning the whole church. on any other subject the pope can talk as much rubbish as any one else. when did a pope last tell catholics to dissobey civil laws.Each catholic and everyone else has his/her own conscience.
or in the words of J C render unto ceasar---

Originally posted by superr
The doctrine of infalibility only applies to matters of faith and morals concerning the whole church. on any other subject the pope can talk as much rubbish as any one else. when did a pope last tell catholics to dissobey civil laws.Each catholic and everyone else has his/her own conscience.
or in the words of J C render unto ceasar---

It is within the Pope's authority to instruct the faithful how to act in ALL aspects of their life.

The Pope is only infallible on matters of church doctrine and faith. If the Pope told you to go kill the Jews, it would not be sin to abstain because the Pope has no authority on such a subject.

Actually...yes he does. The Pope has stated many times before the absolute authority he wields- Jesus said "what you bind on earth I will bind in heaven" he didn't say, "oh but I limit it to spiritual matters".

The Church has though. It's the rationale that allows them to ignore the shitty popes and the crusades.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
The Church has though. It's the rationale that allows them to ignore the shitty popes and the crusades.

That doesn't change the fact that the Pope is, in Catholicism, the Supreme Head of pretty much everything...

I have a question about the pope and catholic religion in general...does not the pope or at least past popes and some catholics...bow to the statue of mary when praying??...your not suppose to bow to any statue right?? idol whatever...I'm gonna pick back up on my research I think but I totally welcome responses from all who are knowledgeable in this area...its interesting what can I say

Indeed they do, however they do not worship the statue- nor do they believe the statue is the incarnation of divine. Indeed, God commanded for his people to make statues!

In the same book as God forbids the worship of statues (Ex. 20:4–5;Ex. 32:31) he also commands the construction of statues for religious use. (Ex. 25:18–20)

During the plague of snakes God told Moses if he built the statue of a snake, all those who looked at it would be saved. (Num. 21:8–9).

You had to LOOK at the statue, thus it had a religious use and was not just there for decoration.

When constructing his temple David included statues of angels. (1 Chr. 28:18–19)

Again, it comes down to worship- its OK to have religious statues and its OK for people to look to statues as tools of their worship- remember the serpent statue? However, its when people start to worship the statue as a God that you start committing idolatry- when people started to worship the snake statue...God became angry and it was destroyed.

What about the bowing you cry! Well, bowing doesn't actually mean worship. A bow is more a show of respect for the image of divine person- it doesn't mean you worship the image. If I bow infront of the Queen does that mean I worship her? When Protestants bow infront of Bibles are they worshiping it? No, its just a sign of respect.

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
That doesn't change the fact that the Pope is, in Catholicism, the Supreme Head of pretty much everything...

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
It changes the fact he doesn't have absolute authority to tell you to break a law.

Yes he does...

It would be a simple fact of him saying something along these lines...

"This law is against the laws of God...I as God's earthly representative know what laws he wants...this one is contrary to his nature...therefore you must disobey it under pain of excommunication."

And that will be considered null and void by the next pope or the pope or by someone else later on. The Pope has authority as long as it is in reason. Telling people to break law under threat of excommunication is not within reason.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
And that will be considered null and void by the next pope or the pope or by someone else later on. The Pope has authority as long as it is in reason. Telling people to break law under threat of excommunication is not within reason.

I'm sorry but, where in Catholic Theology does it say that?

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I'm sorry but, where in Catholic Theology does it say that?

Personally, I think it's nutty to transfer the expectations one has of a god-made-man on to a man made god. And I also find it a bit hypocritical of a man who admits his own human shortcomings to accept the mantle of the mouth piece of god.

If things don't work out for McCain in november, maybe he should run for Pope.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
I honestly have no idea where, but I've heard it from priests when I brought up the renaissance popes and the crusades. The pope's were not representative because they only have infallibility in matters of faith.

I think those priests should be informed the sacraments they have performed are illicit as they are clearly schismatic or they are trying to avoid the difficult question that is the crusades.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
The Pope is only infallible on matters of church doctrine and faith. If the Pope told you to go kill the Jews, it would not be sin to abstain because the Pope has no authority on such a subject.

God did give man a mind and allowed them to decide for themselves ....and if a pope tells you to kill then that goes against God's law and most of us know that would be messed up.....you then know the pope is smokin somethin.....lol...so I agree he does not have the authority to tell anyone to kill anyone!.....Im not sure how far his authority goes but his authority over me is none...I will bow to Jesus and God...I will not bow to any man on this earth till Jesus returns...then you can bet Im bowing..lol..

Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
The question is:

Should Roman Catholic's follow the Pope before the Head of State of their country?

In my opinion, your not a true Catholic if you don't accept that the Pontiff is the successor to Saint Peter and therefore Jesus' appointed representative on Earth.

Thusly, I would put the decrees of the Holy Father before that of the House of Commons or the Queen. Is this unreasonable?

No.

I think the USA should invade Vatican and send the Pope and his Cardinals to Guantanamo.