Charlotte/Leo/Gundam Vs. BW

Imply at anything you want, I added the Aquarian effect. It stops you from moving, and a good amount of other effects too. Theres a reason I used the combined effects. I'm not all just good looks

that's all well and good except for 2 things:

(1) the field does NOT keep me from moving. it keeps me from moving beyond a certain speed limit. but i don't HAVE to move to steal your speed. by manipulating the speed of your weapon and team at the sub-atomic level, i can freeze you completely without ever having to move. and perhaps more importantly,

(2) aquarian's powers have NEVER been muddled with in that manner. to allow it to work WITH your energy weapon would be to alter his power completely. you can't say -- 'the null field will allow THIS energy but not THAT energy to function within its parameters'. is it possible that b5 could do something that no one has ever done and find a way to nullify aquarian's field? maybe, i guess. but you want it to nullify SOME energies (ours) and not others (yours). WITHOUT A SINGLE IOTA OF PROOF THAT IT'S EVEN POSSIBLE. there is no logical way anyone can accept that.

aquarian's powers nullify energy. period. using it in the way you are trying to is nothing but OUTRAGEOUS and unsupported speculation.

You are comparing him with a "gun" that can absorb the entirety of the energy in the universe? pffffft.

😂

pfffffft! my favourite counter! 😄

and actually, i'm comparing the TYPE OF ATTACK, not the character in question. i've proven 2 very important things with that scan: (1) the SF is an INFINITE source of power, and (2) it can be used to overload something that is trying to DRAIN it.

you're weapon is trying to drain my power. my power source is infinite. it WILL overload your weapon. your weapon WILL explode. with all your amazos powerless inside your weapon, (thanks to their proximity to aquarian . . . whoops . . .) your team is completely finished once that occurs. 🙂

of course, that's even IF it can drain the SF AT ALL! conspicuously absent from bw's rebuttal is ANY DEFENSE AT ALL against the idea that the SF is extra-dimensional and hence OUTSIDE the powers of his weapon to affect. of course, there was no defense offered simply because he HAS no defense. don't forget -- i have SIX emperor speed adaptoids, ALL with ludicrous speed. while the cubes are being used, and the SF is unaffected by your weapon, i could simply have the other adaptoids steal your weapon's speed -- something we could do easily while your weapon (which has nothing close to an instantaneous affect) is TRYING to drain us. simple as that. once that happens, i don't even NEED the cubes! gundam's attack will finish you -- especially since your strongest guys are all rendered useless through your tactical error of placing them all in such close proximity inside the weapon. 🙂

I would claim the null field would protect me from you moving.

you can claim it, like i could claim i simply create a shield that blocks the affects of the null field. only i realize it's never been done and have no evidence that might convince anyone . . .

The whole deal with Savitar and access to the speed force. Throughout his career, Savitar didn’t have a connection to the speed force until Wally managed to merge Savitar to the speed force. After that, I don’t recall him making another appearance. But the point is that Savitar was specifically NOT attuned with the speed force.
So I don’t get the idea behind explaining to everyone that he’d have access to the speed force.

hmm, don't know who you were talking to but he was very confused. the SF is the source of ALL speedsters' powers. EVERY speedster has 'access' to and a 'connection to' the force. some simply have greater access than others. savitar had a VERY strong connection with the SF, and his access is self-evident -- his SPEED is proof. under his own power, he broke the lightspeed barrier and brushed the SF itself. what he was always after was MORE. wally MAINSTREAMED the SF. THAT is what savitar wanted. his skill in manipulating the force was FAR greater than wally's ever was though. it was savitar who taught WALTER everything he knew of the speed force, and how to use it in ways wally never even imagined.

to say savitar was not 'attuned' to the SF is blatantly inaccurate. in fact, his control was SO great he STOLE the speed of every speedster on earth EXCEPT wally! and again, that was only because wally had the strongest, most direct link to the force. with vulcan's ability to tap into the SF, savitar's OWN access and knowledge, his ability to use the SF would be far greater than ever. and it was ALREADY greater than anyone else's ever was.

Not to mention, the whole “faster than instantaneous travel” was done under special, outside circumstances. I remember Wally couldn’t do that alone, or under normal conditions.

😕

if you're claiming that, it falls to you to prove it was special circumstance because i've never seen that was the case -- and given the unceratinty with which you raise the issue, i know YOU can't prove it either. hell, that's arguably not even the fastest wally has ever gone! if he reaches a certain speed he ENTERS the SF. so he has gone faster. savitar has gone as fast as you can possibly go WITHOUT entering the SF, so any speed wally has reached, savitar himself could reach. he can even enter tthe SF on his own, (which is how wally ended up defeating him) he just couldn't escape, like only wally was able to do.

again, savitar's speed and ability to WIELD the SF was ONLY limited by the amount of SF he could access. with vulcan, his access is far, far greater than it ever was. (the whole savitar issue has been proven with scans, but i have others. if anyone really questions what i've said, just ask and i can provide the necessary scans)

if you want, I could synch it up so that the Aquarian beam frequency changes over to the Concentrator beam with the beam never ceasing to fire.

😂

if i want? you might have had to suggest that in prep, though frankly that is about as believeable as the whole "synch'ing the null field with an energy weapon plan" is -- that is to say -- NOT believeable at all . . . changing tactics in mid-stream is never a very good idea and makes your original plan seem even MORE dubious . . . somehow . . .

Saying B5 is smart is reason enough for anything.

NOT the best defense since CLEARLY he isn't smart enough to do ANYTHING -- if he was, legion would be pretty boring . . . and since NO ONE has ever tampered with aquarian's field (let alone MERGED it with a friggin ENERGY WEAPON!) i see no reason to think b5 could do such a thing when no one else ever has.

Lets look at the facts. My weapon can nuetralize your weapon.

nope, it can't actually, it's a matter converter. it's energy source is MATTER! to cut it off, or drain a cube, you'd need to eliminate ALL MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE. (another point you never bothered to even attempt to counter in your post . . . .) nor has your weapon ever SHOWN the ability to drain anything CLOSE to a cube in terms of power. and again, the cube is a source of LIMITLESS power. how do you drain that?? about as effectively as you drain the SF, that's how. 🙂

but I can cut it off before it starts.

nah. your weapon takes time -- it is proven in your scans that its effects are NOT instantaneous. the cubes (amped by SF energy) would work before you had a chance to drain them completely (if anyone believes you could drain them at all), or i could drain the weapon's speed ANYTIME because you CANNOT drain the SF due to itsextra-dimensional origin. we win with the cubes, or we win via speed steal. either way doesn't matter.

I started the drain before you thought "win". I made sure Brainy upgraded the firing sequence to past those speeds. I cut you off from the cube, you cannot do anything: No shields, no winning, no effect. You are effectively powerless.

you can't drain an infinite cube. you can't drain the SF. and even if your speed amping IS believed by anyone -- i'm STILL faster!

we win. easily.

..wow Leo. Never been asked if the comics are even relevant to the matter at hand. Where Cosmic Boy loses his power is the first time the device has ever been used. (by Lucifer 7 if I am not mistaken). And it can destroy...just like in the scans it destroyed the suns.

i'd STILL like to see the full context for that. even in the scans you showed (and you sound . . . not quite like an expert on the scans my friend . . .) it never verifies the weapon was the cause for their loss of power. i don't suppose i'll get anymore evidence though, so i'll need to take your explanation as truth, but a scan showing the weapon firing at EYTH or some SOLID evidence would have been nice . . . 😬

Leo, try to understand: Your weapon has merit in its power. But if it cannot access the energy to run that power? If it is drained before you can use said power? That is what I can do, I can take away your power. Then use it against you. Tactically? Thats you being outmaneuvered.

nah. i powered the cube with SF energy -- it works WAYYYY before you can even TRY somehow draining something with limitless power. SF still works cuz you can't prove the weapon affects extra-dimensional power. i have SIX adaptoids who can steal the speed of your wepaon before it does ANYTHING of consequence -- and they have all day anyway because they will ALWAYS have access to the SF.

really, we win this quite handily. he never defended the 2 biggest things -- our continued access to the speed force, and his inability to deppower a cube because it's energy source is MATTER, not energy. we have NINE cubes. even if you don't like the wish, i can drain his speed, overload his weapon with infinite energy and we STILL have 8 cubes against him. the claim of draining superpowers is dubious (superboy didn't seem to have been rendered powerless when it was used) and he has even helped us out by wiping out his own team inside his weapon.

have fun in spain. 😄

Ok, after all the theatrics and politics, we can get down to the brass tax:

1) During prep Leonidas activated a forcefield which would protect himself and his teammates from anything:

then, a second dupe commands his cube to create an impenetrable force field around my guys that will stop anything from harming us, like this:

http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shieldar4.jpg

http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shield1ou4.jpg

With all the hub-bub over the legality of the wish and ohko, which has been rectified, this action here, after the Cubes have been deemed legal, makes B-Dub's attacks essentially harmless.

2) B-Dub claims to use Vulcan's powers to increase the speed of the machine like Leonidas is doing with Savitar/Vulcan. Problem being, as in the prior matches, there's no evidence that Vulcan can increase the rate of kinesis in other objects under his own power, and Leonidas is using the amalgamated Vulcan/Savitar; Savitar who has a direct ability to manipulate the speed force energy, and Vulcan, whose powers are to manipulate various energy sources. Being merged with Savitar is what gives Vulcan access to kinesis/speed force manipulation, not his own powers alone. Also, as evidenced in previous matches, when Amazo copies Flash, he doesn't copy the speed force/kinesis manipulation, he just simulates super speed. There's no reason to believe you'd have access to, be able to manipulate, or be able to counter, the Speed Force.

Also, he used evidence of faster than light speed transportion (ships that travel at faster than light speed) to substantiate his ability to speed up the rate at which the Concentrator draws on energy. That's a stretch that I can't accept.

3) The Concentrator, per the scans, only drains certain EM energy sources, as Leo stated:

last thing -- in the second scan, the people mention that there is no electricity or atomic power. what proof is there (aside from the ALLEGED proof of draining superpowers) that the concentrator can drain anything BUT electricity or atomic power? it clearly doesn't drain from ANY source as one of bw's scans say, because it doesn't drain kinetic energy or bio-electric energy (and that IMMEDIATELY SHOULD CALL INTO QUESTOIN THE VALIDITY OF ALL THE SCANS). i don't know how we can even believe the claim of it draining superpowers without there ever being a mention of the concentrator being the cause for the loss of powers . . .

The scans work against you in that regard B-Dub. So, as Leo pointed out, there's no evidence the Concentrator saps kinesis/motion, so the Speed Force would be unimpeded, it doesn't drain sound, as the Legionaires are clearly speaking as the machine is active:

http://img296.imageshack.us/my.php?image=secretsofthelegionosh11gc9.jpg

so it clearly doesn't drain the entire EM spectrum. It also doesn't steal the bio-electric impulses of the human brain and body (which are within the EM spectrum). As a matter of fact, the only person in that scan that seems to be depowered is Cosmic Boy and his EM based magnetic powers. We're not even sure if Lightning Lad (who was also present), Saturn Girl, or Phantom Girl were depowered. As a matter of fact, Saturn Girl seemingly flies across the room to save Cosmic Boy from being crushed by the block he was lifting with his magnetism powers (flies, or a very, very, very fast and long distance dive). At no point in any of the scans is there evidence that all super powers across the board were drained. All we have evidence of is that it drains nuclear power (Stars, Nuclear Reactors), Electricty (Vehicle Batteries, power plants causing black outs), and Cosmic Boys magnetic abilities (EM based).

4) Aquarian does offer a problem. It's just about impossible to harm him, and his powers just so happen to come from a cosmic cube, so I'm not sure that Leo's Ultimate Cubes, even in concert, are going to override the effects of a 616 cosmic cube on Aquarian, particularly since Aquarian's powers work specifically to negate the use of powers on him. That may be a wash, though it doesn't really help the rest of B-Dub's team.

5) The Concentrator can't be left on indefinitely, and Team Leo is shielded against it (see #1). Once the time runs out, it's pretty much curtains.

So, upon taking everything into consideration, I've come to the conclusion that the only logical winner of this battle would be the team of Charlotte, Gundam, and Leonidas. Leonidas protected his team from the Concentrator/Aquarian beam in prep, and the machine can only be operated for short periods of time. Once the machine shuts down the only line of defense left for B-Dub is Aquarian, at the expense of the rest of his tech based teammates, against 9+ cosmic cube bearers.

That is essentially, for lack of better terms, a gangbang orgy.

Judge's Vote:

Charlotte, Gundam, and Leonidas. 👆

Ok then with illegality of the Cubes and Concentrator disbanded for this match I think this match really comes down to which super weapon to believe.

On a personal level I find both weapons to be a little over-hyped in this match. I often think things like limitless power and infinite power get toss around way too much in comics. Then you look at the scans and realize the feats show different stories all together.

The Concentrator:
When reading the words, this seems like a doozy of a weapon. It seems like it should wreck entire clusters of Galaxies. Yet, with all the supposed energy it had it was only used to destroy a few solidified suns. Impressive, but not exactly the best tech based attack ever seen in a comic book if you want the truth.

The Ultimate Cube:
Once again another seemingly awesome sounding weapon with little or no bite with what is being hyped up to be. At the end of the day nothing really ever challenged the Cubes power other than low class heroes. Yes it made teh Earth putty in Thanos hands, but honestly for an "Uber" cosmic power I find it lacking. 616 Odin on panel has done better feat wise.

Although only the inadequate nature of one of these weapons was brought to the forefront. Only the team challenged BW's use of the Concentrator. While B-Dub was more than willing to give Leo cake and let him eat it to. Therefore for this match I must assume Leo's weapon is the Universal Be-All-End-All Leo claims it to be.

On the other hand Leo has bought a few issues regarding the weapon B-Dub built.

One) what level of energy could this Concentrator really absorb. As Leo pointed out would this thing drain Galactus, or some other high level cosmic. No evidence was brought up by B-Dub for me to believe so. So I must assume a high level cosmic energy source could possibly withstand and fight the effects of the Concentrator.

Two) Could this thing drain the speed force. Leo made the point that it was Extra-Dimensional, and that the Concentrator was never shown to be able effect anything outside of it's Universe. So I must assume Leo could still have access to the SF.

Three) Was it the Concentrator that took away the Superhero's powers. I'm sorry Leo but plausible denial only goes so far. You never gave me a good explanation on what else it could have been that sapped those powers. So I feel the Concentrator can sap at least certain super powers.

Four) That the fact that Kinetic Energy still existed as shown people moving does mean that Leo would still be able to use SF gained powers.

Five) I'm sorry BW but simply saying B5 is "smart enough" isn't good enough. I can not simply take that kind of statement and allow for the possibility that he can mess with Wundarr's Null Field.

Six) That the Cube once powered can basically use matter itself as energy was never countered. Which means that Leo would not lose the power for his Cubes to work.

With all of these points considered. I have to says that Leo's weapon is more than capable of countering and overpowering B-Dub's weapon.

Therefore my Judge Vote goes to:
Team.

Good job people.