Originally posted by nimbus006
He is correct though, assuming no high herald levelers can be transmuted is quite an unsubstantial claim.I understand why he would think that, however, there's still no proof to verify such a statement.
A celestial (or something) once turned Thor into a frog just by looking at him ... I think Surfer has been on the receiving end of that sort of thing before as well.
Originally posted by TricksterPriestUnless Henshaw is in some way 'un-transmutable', then such a method is quite plausible, imo.
Surfer is not transmuting him for the win.
----
And concerning Draxx/Scoob's question: it was Loki whom transformed Thor into a frog [unless it happened again on another occasion].
Hmm...
I'd take Surfer, actually. There's a few problems with the pro-Henshaw argument (though I'm a Cyborg Supes fan):
1) The substances he forms a body from don't take on special properties simply because Henshaw forms a body out of it. If he forms a physical body out of scrap metal his body is composed of scrap metal, when he formed it out of the Source Wall it was composed of Source Wall. I've yet to see Henshaw turn his body into a completely different substance other than that which he had inhabited. He changes the form but not the substance. Most of his more exotic abilities come from his inhabiting Kal's Kryptonian birthing matrix (which also gave him access to Kryptonian DNA) and later Apokoliptian Tech. There's no evidence that the materials of the Birthing matrix or Apokoliptian technology are non-transmutable simply because they are Kryptonian or Apokoliptian in nature. They are still just metals.
2) Hank is an energy being, he simply inhabits metals. Metals conduct his consciousness just as moisture conducts Iceman's. If you turned all metal in the vicinity to wood or plastic he'd have no resources to create new bodies from. Surfer can do that.
3) Hank's physical bodies are only as durable as the materials he composes them of. His body has been incinerated by the sun, explosions, etc. The latest version of Henshaw (in Sinestro Corps.) had his body near completely destroyed by the detonation of War World. Surfer has planet busting level energy output.
So, whereas I think Hank would make VERY good showings against Surfer, Surfer's versatility and ability to limit Hank's resources in a neutral environment make me give him the edge, but it's almost completely dependent on the battlefield. There are some battlefields (Cybertron, The Kyln, WarWorld, etc.) where I'd give Hank the majority since he'd have a lot of resources to work with.
Originally posted by llagrok
Didn't Digimark say that unless proven otherwise, High Herald+ aren't simply transmutable?
The hell?
Well, sorta, but it wasn't a blanket statement for all characters, and I was stating an opinion, not writing it in stone.
Originally posted by Soljer
I doubt Digi'd make a moronic, sweeping generalization like that.
😂
It was mainly that the onus is proof is on the "transmutation ftw" people, because most at this level have such durability and molecular density that transmutation is far from a given. Possible, sure, but not proven by any sort of showings from people at this level. But yeah, it wasn't a generalization.
Also, I have no problem with Surfer winning. But transmutation for Surfer is something that would likely require too much concentration in the middle of a tough battle to pull off...and that's if it would work at all.
Originally posted by Galan007
Unless Henshaw is in some way 'un-transmutable', then such a method is quite plausible, imo.----
And concerning Draxx/Scoob's question: it was Loki whom transformed Thor into a frog [unless it happened again on another occasion].
If it was Loki, then the means of transformation might of been mystical in nature rather than matter manipulation, correct?
Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...I'd take Surfer, actually. There's a few problems with the pro-Henshaw argument (though I'm a Cyborg Supes fan):
1) The substances he forms a body from don't take on special properties simply because Henshaw forms a body out of it. If he forms a physical body out of scrap metal his body is composed of scrap metal, when he formed it out of the Source Wall it was composed of Source Wall. I've yet to see Henshaw turn his body into a completely different substance other than that which he had inhabited. He changes the form but not the substance. Most of his more exotic abilities come from his inhabiting Kal's Kryptonian birthing matrix (which also gave him access to Kryptonian DNA) and later Apokoliptian Tech. There's no evidence that the materials of the Birthing matrix or Apokoliptian technology are non-transmutable simply because they are Kryptonian or Apokoliptian in nature. They are still just metals.
2) Hank is an energy being, he simply inhabits metals. Metals conduct his consciousness just as moisture conducts Iceman's. If you turned all metal in the vicinity to wood or plastic he'd have no resources to create new bodies from. Surfer can do that.
3) Hank's physical bodies are only as durable as the materials he composes them of. His body has been incinerated by the sun, explosions, etc. The latest version of Henshaw (in Sinestro Corps.) had his body near completely destroyed by the detonation of War World. Surfer has planet busting level energy output.
So, whereas I think Hank would make [b]VERY
good showings against Surfer, Surfer's versatility and ability to limit Hank's resources in a neutral environment make me give him the edge, but it's almost completely dependent on the battlefield. There are some battlefields (Cybertron, The Kyln, WarWorld, etc.) where I'd give Hank the majority since he'd have a lot of resources to work with. [/B]
Good points.
There isn't anything in Surfer that isn't transmutable either. Nor is he immune to having his power cosmic stolen/weakened, or even completely neutralized by tech. It's similar to Surfers metallic glaze being susceptable to being taken over by Henshaw.
We also have some intersting examples:
Surfer had trouble with Glads. (Who is a Marvel Superman)
Henshaw has whooped Eradicator. (Who is basically DC Surfer)
In their crossover, Henshaw pretty much laughed at the PC at surfers level.
Henshaw has turned toys into something as complex as a kryptonian brain. That's high level transmutation right there. I haven't seen the source wall transmuted by anyone on any level. Usually just having contact with the wall means that you're taken out for the count. Manipulating to any ends is very impressive.
Surfer has been taken out by a sonic missle, a brick, cyanide, electromagnetic manipulation, tech, and blunt force.
Neither character is invincible. Both a VERY versatile. Both have tools to battle with that would make a great battle.