How many Elders to beat Darkseid?

You know what, I just found the second part of that scan and from the looks of it, it seems like he arrived there instantly.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/NewGodsv310-20.jpg

Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom

You know what,
I just found the second part of that scan and from the looks of it,
it seems like he arrived there instantly.

Here I got Silver Surfer reaching a spot located a thousand UniverseS away

in 3 pages:

Doesn't say how fast he was going,
but notice he even had a pit stop at Zenn-La,
had a quick conversation with his love,
and proceeded with his journey,
and still got there in 3 pages,
one of which focuses back on Earth,
so it was really 2 pages.
Not to mention he managed to attract the Decimators
and get them to do what he went there for.

All in 3 pages.

That's ridiculous, and the Runner is far faster.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I guess it's plausible, but it's still not concrete,
at-least not based on that scan alone.

Here I got Silver Surfer reaching a spot located a thousand UniverseS away

in 3 pages:

Doesn't say how fast he was going,
but notice he even had a pit stop at Zenn-La,
had a quick conversation with his love,
and proceeded with his journey,
and still got there in 3 pages,
one of which focuses back on Earth,
so it was really 2 pages.
Not to mention he managed to attract the Decimators
and get them to do what he went there for.

All in 3 pages.

That's ridiculous, and the Runner is far faster.

And they say pre-crisis Superman was ridiculous.

Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom

And they say pre-crisis Superman was ridiculous.

I have an issue where pre-crisis Supes travelled across the entire infinite Multiverse,
he literally broke out of the Multiverse,
and nearly crashed into the gates of heaven itself,
the Spectre was sent by the Presence to stop him before he did so.

Madness, but I love it. 😄

Yet, funnier than that,
is the fact that Supes was trying to catch up to, (get this)
an un-conscious Supergirl. 😱
(oh yea, you read that right, her un-conscious body was zooming uberdiculous style)

Originally posted by Mr Master
😂

I have an issue where pre-crisis Supes travelled across the entire infinite Multiverse,
he literally broke out of the Multiverse,
and nearly crashed into the gates of heaven itself,
the Spectre was sent by the Presence to stop him before he did so.

Madness, but I love it. 😄

Yet, funnier than that,
is the fact that Supes was trying to catch up to, (get this)
an un-conscious Supergirl. 😱
(oh yea, you read that right, her un-conscious body was zooming uberdiculous style)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Doesn't say how fast he was going,
but notice he even had a pit stop at Zenn-La,
had a quick conversation with his love,
and proceeded with his journey,
and still got there in 3 pages,
one of which focuses back on Earth,
so it was really 2 pages.
Not to mention he managed to attract the Decimators
and get them to do what he went there for.

All in 3 pages.

That's ridiculous, and the Runner is far faster.

You know that's an impressive speed feat in and of itself when you take into consideration the fact that Zenn-La's system is 6,000 lightyears from Earth(Reed talks about it in the last panel)...

Originally posted by darthgoober

You know that's an impressive speed feat in and of itself when you take into consideration the fact that Zenn-La's system is 6,000 lightyears from Earth(Reed talks about it in the last panel)...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Holy!

I wonder what Ego can do against Apokolips if the other elders preoccupy DS for a bit.

Originally posted by darthgoober

And just think, that part of the trip only took 3 panels(and that's including the panels where Surfer leaves Earth's atmosphere and the one where he arrives on Zenn-)La 😄 .

Now just think that Runner is far faster. fear

Originally posted by Mr Master
👆

Now just think that Runner is far faster. fear

I'm not saying that Surfer's the faster of the two now or anything like that though, just that it seems like a stretch to use the fight as concrete evidence of Runner being far faster than Surfer's current depiction.

Originally posted by darthgoober

IDK Mr. M... I mean I'll readily acknowledge that the Runner was the faster of the two during their fight but then again that fight was a LONG time ago and Surfer's showings of power/speed are far more impressive now. Back in those days Surfer wasn't even sure he could survive a black hole.

I'm not saying that Surfer's the faster of the two now or anything like that though, just that it seems like a stretch to use the fight as concrete evidence of Runner being far faster of Surfer's current depiction.

So who knows.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Imo, Surfer may have surpassed Runner in power after his several upgrades,
but in speed, that's what the characters was designed for,
only Makkari is faster in Marvel historically speaking.
Now grant it, after the famous race across the cosmos,
we haven't seen much of the Runner,
he made a cameo appearance in Annihilation, but didn't do anything.

So who knows.

But even back in the day Surfer was ridiculously fast so the Runner trumping him in the speed department back then is still impressive as Hell. And aside from the Surfer fight the Runner DID take Moondragon on something of a "cosmic stroll" that spanned multiple galaxies in just two pages...
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=defenders14316kx4.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=defenders14317fz7.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober

I agree. Like I said I'm not saying that Surfer's actually faster now(for that matter I'm not even saying that Surfer's "as fast", just that Runner has too few appearances to positively determine how he and Surfer match up nowadays because Surfer's come a long way since they butted heads.

But even back in the day Surfer was ridiculously fast so the Runner trumping him in the speed department back then is still impressive as Hell.

Originally posted by darthgoober

And aside from the Surfer fight the Runner DID take Moondragon on something of a "cosmic stroll" that spanned multiple galaxies...
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=defenders14316kx4.jpg

Nice. 🙂

Even though The Runner's much faster than Darkseid, he's been hit by those who are slower than him before. Aside from the fact that The Silver Surfer managed to land an attack and grapple with him, a few issues later Mantis managed to trip The Runner over while she and Surfer fought the Elders. Also, Darkseid could use an area effect attack, like what he did in Legion: Foundations, or occupy him with something like Shadow Demons before using the OE.

It's kind of hard to say who'd win, though, since The Runner's only major displays of power are his win over Surfer and sucker-blitzing Thanos, while the only limitations we've seen of him are losing a race to Makkarri, being tripped by Mantis, and being defeated by Infinity Gems. Add to this Darkseid's wild inconsistency since 2000, and the fight is pretty much at the whim of whoever's writing it.

I'd give "average" (quotations as his power level changes from one appearance to the next these days) Darkseid a small edge against The Stranger, a sizable advantage against Champion, and probably a significant disadvantage against Grandmaster (although he's also hard to define).

This is notwithstanding Final Crisis ... Apparently Darkseid in his true form is the most powerful of about 10 different beings all in Galactus' ballpark. The first two issues of FC are confusing as hell, but that's how most of Morrison's stories start off. Hopefully it'll be good.

I don't think SS managing to tag the runner speaks against the runner, but more for SS, by indicating that SS does indeed have certain combat reflexes. Of course, there is also the "flash" syndrome, in which characters which should not be getting hit actually do get hit. It still does not excuse getting tripped by Mantis, even though martial artists seem to benefit from slight PIS against speedsters. She has had good showings against Cap and Thor, so it isn't so bad.

As for his showings, runner performed pretty well in all his combat showings. I don't think that either the mantis nor makkarri race constitute combat showings, which basically leaves a gem-wielding Thanos and SS. That alone sets a pretty high bar for his average level. Add that to the fact that DS will not be performing optimally due to his likeability, and I reckon the runner could do very well against him. Up in the air, and at the mercy of the writers, but I would expect a 5/10.

Originally posted by darthgoober
How do you figure when the Elders include guys like Grandmaster, Ego, and the Collector(his true form's actually pretty powerful)?

Don't forget Contemplator. 👆 Im not too sure about DS but beings such as Grandmaster and Contemplator on their own would be tough enough. Hes certainly not beating them all.

Originally posted by Ouallada
I don't think SS managing to tag the runner speaks against the runner, but more for SS, by indicating that SS does indeed have certain combat reflexes. Of course, there is also the "flash" syndrome, in which characters which should not be getting hit actually do get hit. It still does not excuse getting tripped by Mantis, even though martial artists seem to benefit from slight PIS against speedsters. She has had good showings against Cap and Thor, so it isn't so bad.

As for his showings, runner performed pretty well in all his combat showings. I don't think that either the mantis nor makkarri race constitute combat showings, which basically leaves a gem-wielding Thanos and SS. That alone sets a pretty high bar for his average level. Add that to the fact that DS will not be performing optimally due to his likeability, and I reckon the runner could do very well against him. Up in the air, and at the mercy of the writers, but I would expect a 5/10.

Surfer's almost never been portrayed as having comat-related reflexes beyond Spider-Man level to my knowledge. He's done things implying he should have that sort of speed outside of battle, but in battle it rarely if ever is shown. And Thor is definitely not faster than Captain America in the minds of most writers, so Mantis hitting Thor doesn't really mean anything. The bottom line is that a few issues after beating Surfer -- The Runner's only definitive combat showing -- he was tripped by Mantis. That implies that Darkseid would indeed be able to land attacks on him as per the writer of the Surfer encounter.

Talking about "averages" when it comes to The Runner is pretty irrelevent. We really have no idea where he stands in the MU hiearchy, aside from being above Surfer and likely below Odin. The Runner's power appears to be somewhere in the same ballpark as Darkseid's, but it's impossible to say where, exactly. His limits haven't been defined.

my squad of elders;

-ego (pure power)
-grandmaster (master strategist/power)
-runner (speed/durability/power)
-caregiver (team healer)

----------------------------

the runner can assault ds quite effectively while ego manufactures 5 ego primes to finish ds.

grandmaster can just chill and coordinate his "siblings" next attacks.

the caregiver can heal anything really fast, even abstracts, so if anyone on the team needs it she can do it instantaneously.

you cantheal the omega effect, it erases you from existence