How many Elders to beat Darkseid?

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Surfer's almost never been portrayed as having comat-related reflexes beyond Spider-Man level to my knowledge. He's done things implying he should have that sort of speed outside of battle, but in battle it rarely if ever is shown. And Thor is definitely not faster than Captain America in the minds of most writers, so Mantis hitting Thor doesn't really mean anything. The bottom line is that a few issues after beating Surfer -- The Runner's only definitive combat showing -- he was tripped by Mantis. That implies that Darkseid would indeed be able to land attacks on him as per the writer of the Surfer encounter.

Talking about "averages" when it comes to The Runner is pretty irrelevent. We really have no idea where he stands in the MU hiearchy, aside from being above Surfer and likely below Odin. The Runner's power appears to be somewhere in the same ballpark as Darkseid's, but it's impossible to say where, exactly. His limits haven't been defined.

Well, SS was shown to blitz Nova in the latter's own series. To be honest, if wonder woman is assumed to have near light speed reflexes by being able to block lasers with her bracelets, surfer should get the benefit of that doubt as well, using the same coin. Dodging asteroids while traveling at multiples of light speed is very arguably a better relative feat than blocking lasers, where relative is used because neither are combat feats per se, but rather how the two characters react with relation to situations. I'm not going to argue about whether or not Thor fights faster than Cap, even though he does have some combat speed feats, but am rather going to say that the point is that Mantis isn't exactly some no-name can, and that if runner's lowest feat is being tripped, it bodes well for him.

I'm not doubting that DS will in all probability be able to hit runner, the same way I don't doubt that Flash can be tagged as well. The only problem is consistency, and whether or not the severity can put down a being of runner's physical stats. The surfer fight, of course, should have little bearing on whether or not DS can hit runner consistently, as he is undoubtedly quicker than DS -- Tyson being able to knock someone out has no bearing on whether or not the man on the street can. The fact that SS only came close to touching the runner after the latter saw fit to engage in close quarter combat and a test of strength illustrates the context even better.

It is not irrelevant. It is simply inconclusive. That works the same way as it does for Scathan and Protege. If the former's only appearance has him at LT level, that is his established level, simply that the lack of appearances makes it inconclusive as to whether or not it is PIS. As for runner, his only two combat feats, one in which he humiliates SS, and the other in which he blitzed a gem-wielding Thanos (the point on whether or not he tapped into the space gem is of course arguable) place him on a pretty high pedestal. I place less emphasis on his non-combat feats, even though I do not call PIS on any of them. In any case, I can agree that his place is above SS but lower than Odin. I would put him at Thanos level or slightly above, which in my opinion is good enough to take at least a split against DS.

Originally posted by george '06
you cantheal the omega effect, it erases you from existence

sure in this thread they aren't immortal but the power primordial wasn't taken away so i'm assuming they are essential to the universe as galactus is.

galactus even ate several elders and they continued living within his "stomach".

Originally posted by Ouallada
Well, SS was shown to blitz Nova in the latter's own series. To be honest, if wonder woman is assumed to have near light speed reflexes by being able to block lasers with her bracelets, surfer should get the benefit of that doubt as well, using the same coin.

Thing is, I don't consider WW's combat speed that high up there honestly. I'll consider her ability to block stuff very high (although I haven't seen her do anything near light speed even in her best portrayals), but in terms of combat, pretty much everyone is able to hit her, speedsters have been able to blitz her, and she doesn't blitz anyone. Honestly, I think the writers of both Surfer and WW don't even take into account what their respective blocking ability and flight speed should imply in a HTH fight for the most part.

Bottom line is this -- regardless of whether or not Surfer may have Superman-like speed, if the writers are leaving this potential aspect of his power out of his battles 99.9% of the time and there's no indication that it was in play here, Occam's Razor suggests that it wasn't an active factor here. The encounter with Mantis a few issues later makes this a moot point, in any event.

Originally posted by Ouallada
I'm not doubting that DS will in all probability be able to hit runner, the same way I don't doubt that Flash can be tagged as well. The only problem is consistency, and whether or not the severity can put down a being of runner's physical stats. The surfer fight, of course, should have little bearing on whether or not DS can hit runner consistently, as he is undoubtedly quicker than DS -- Tyson being able to knock someone out has no bearing on whether or not the man on the street can. The fact that SS only came close to touching the runner after the latter saw fit to engage in close quarter combat and a test of strength illustrates the context even better.

It is not irrelevant. It is simply inconclusive. That works the same way as it does for Scathan and Protege. If the former's only appearance has him at LT level, that is his established level, simply that the lack of appearances makes it inconclusive as to whether or not it is PIS. As for runner, his only two combat feats, one in which he humiliates SS, and the other in which he blitzed a gem-wielding Thanos (the point on whether or not he tapped into the space gem is of course arguable) place him on a pretty high pedestal. I place less emphasis on his non-combat feats, even though I do not call PIS on any of them. In any case, I can agree that his place is above SS but lower than Odin. I would put him at Thanos level or slightly above, which in my opinion is good enough to take at least a split against DS.

My point is that -- as you mentioned -- his showings thus far have been inconclusive. As I consider Darkseid's "average" raw power level above Surfer's, it's hard to say exactly how The Runner ranks next to him except to say that they're in the same ballpark. Assuming The Runner is comparable to Darkseid in raw power, versatility, and competence (the latter of which he seemed to lack in Thanos Quest, but I don't hold it against him since the same applied to everyone except Thanos and Warlock in those stories), his speed advantage should give him the win. At this point, though, it would be up to a future writer to give a definitive response. I just don't think The Runner's been defined enough yet to say how he'd do against other opponents who are above top tier.

The only meaningful debates here are whether or not DS can hit The Runner at all and whether or not he could overpower Surfer the way The Runner did. If we agree that the answer to both of those questions is "yes," beyond that we're just going by where we think The Runner's limits may be.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Thing is, I don't consider WW's combat speed that high up there honestly. I'll consider her ability to block stuff very high (although I haven't seen her do anything near light speed even in her best portrayals), but in terms of combat, pretty much everyone is able to hit her, speedsters have been able to blitz her, and she doesn't blitz anyone. Honestly, I think the writers of both Surfer and WW don't even take into account what their respective blocking ability and flight speed should imply in a HTH fight for the most part.

Bottom line is this -- regardless of whether or not Surfer may have Superman-like speed, if the writers are leaving this potential aspect of his power out of his battles 99.9% of the time and there's no indication that it was in play here, Occam's Razor suggests that it wasn't an active factor here. The encounter with Mantis a few issues later makes this a moot point, in any event.

Fair enough on your first point, but WW's agility is another debate for another thread. The point of contention that I have is with SS' seeming lack of feats pertaining to combat reflexes. SS is both a pacifist and a ranged fighter by default, so I really don't see why a lack of h2h combat speed feats counts against him. To me, we don't ask why Mayweather doesn't engage in wild brawls simply because he is a boxer that is both technical and elusive -- he doesn't and should not be expected to need those feats. The same thing applies to SS, who has shown combat speed recently after his supposed mental upgrade in annihilation. Of course, most beings have been able to tag SS in some way, but then and again, the various flashes have been tagged many a time too. In this case, it is my opinion that an absence of proof is not a proof of absence.

As far as having Superman's h2h speed, I don't think any fair person would expect it from SS, who has not only had many fewer appearances, but who isn't supposed to fight in that way. That isn't so much of an assumption but a fact, the same way SS' lack of feats showcasing immediate transmutation of opponents from the get-go does not equal to an inability to do so, but rather simply being in line with character. Thus, I really do not see where Occam's Razor applies here -- I am simply stating that SS' character takes him away from blitzing opponents, an arrear that was corrected when he blitzed Nova after holding back less. Thus, even if SS wasn't going to try to blitz the runner, he has the ability to react at certain speeds. To be honest, after rereading the fight, SS only hit the runner after the latter deemed it necessary to go h2h, so while it was a good showing for SS to actually tag the runner, it was an even better one for the runner to absolutely humiliate SS.

I'm not sure what the Mantis incident is supposed to prove though, or why it cancels the showings against SS and Thanos. Every single speedster has been tagged by someone much slower, an unavoidable occurence. The thing that sets runner aside, and places him higher than most other speedsters is the fact that he has great physical stats to go along with his speed.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan

My point is that -- as you mentioned -- his showings thus far have been inconclusive. As I consider Darkseid's "average" raw power level above Surfer's, it's hard to say exactly how The Runner ranks next to him except to say that they're in the same ballpark. Assuming The Runner is comparable to Darkseid in raw power, versatility, and competence (the latter of which he seemed to lack in Thanos Quest, but I don't hold it against him since the same applied to everyone except Thanos and Warlock in those stories), his speed advantage should give him the win. At this point, though, it would be up to a future writer to give a definitive response. I just don't think The Runner's been defined enough yet to say how he'd do against other opponents who are above top tier.

The only meaningful debates here are whether or not DS can hit The Runner at all and whether or not he could overpower Surfer the way The Runner did. If we agree that the answer to both of those questions is "yes," beyond that we're just going by where we think The Runner's limits may be.

Agreed, once again on the point that runner's showings are inconclusive, and the points on DS being comfortably above SS and runner/DS being in the same ballpark in terms of power. I also partially agree with the point that characters seem to be dumbed down in order to portray the supposed intelligence and craft of other characters, but given the context and the difficulty in writing machiavellian characters, I would say that the ends really justify the means in this case, and that we at least got accurate portrayals of Warlock and Thanos from Starlin.

In addition to your two debates, I would add a point pertaining to whether DS would have done as well as runner against a gem-wielding Thanos. Without arguing aimlessly about whether the runner was using his gem or not, keeping the context correct (e.g. space gem may not be optimal for DS, runner may only have been tapping it subconsciously, if he even did so) would allow everyone to place his power level better. As to your other debates, I reckon that DS would do the same to SS, and my answer to the other is "yes, probably". That's enough for me to give the runner 5/10 here, based on what I've seen.

Runner beats him.

wowzers

Originally posted by Ouallada
Fair enough on your first point, but WW's agility is another debate for another thread. The point of contention that I have is with SS' seeming lack of feats pertaining to combat reflexes. SS is both a pacifist and a ranged fighter by default, so I really don't see why a lack of h2h combat speed feats counts against him. To me, we don't ask why Mayweather doesn't engage in wild brawls simply because he is a boxer that is both technical and elusive -- he doesn't and should not be expected to need those feats. The same thing applies to SS, who has shown combat speed recently after his supposed mental upgrade in annihilation. Of course, most beings have been able to tag SS in some way, but then and again, the various flashes have been tagged many a time too. In this case, it is my opinion that an absence of proof is not a proof of absence.

As far as having Superman's h2h speed, I don't think any fair person would expect it from SS, who has not only had many fewer appearances, but who isn't supposed to fight in that way. That isn't so much of an assumption but a fact, the same way SS' lack of feats showcasing immediate transmutation of opponents from the get-go does not equal to an inability to do so, but rather simply being in line with character. Thus, I really do not see where Occam's Razor applies here -- I am simply stating that SS' character takes him away from blitzing opponents, an arrear that was corrected when he blitzed Nova after holding back less. Thus, even if SS wasn't going to try to blitz the runner, he has the ability to react at certain speeds. To be honest, after rereading the fight, SS only hit the runner after the latter deemed it necessary to go h2h, so while it was a good showing for SS to actually tag the runner, it was an even better one for the runner to absolutely humiliate SS.

I'm not sure what the Mantis incident is supposed to prove though, or why it cancels the showings against SS and Thanos. Every single speedster has been tagged by someone much slower, an unavoidable occurence. The thing that sets runner aside, and places him higher than most other speedsters is the fact that he has great physical stats to go along with his speed.

My entire point was that Darkseid would probably be able to hit The Runner with something if the fight happened in a comic. I thought you were saying that Surfer likely was using some sort of super-reflexes entirely beyond Darkseid's ability to land the blast to The Runner's chest.

Originally posted by Ouallada

Agreed, once again on the point that runner's showings are inconclusive, and the points on DS being comfortably above SS and runner/DS being in the same ballpark in terms of power. I also partially agree with the point that characters seem to be dumbed down in order to portray the supposed intelligence and craft of other characters, but given the context and the difficulty in writing machiavellian characters, I would say that the ends really justify the means in this case, and that we at least got accurate portrayals of Warlock and Thanos from Starlin.

Ah, I agree that Starlin's 90's work was still awesome. I was just pointing out that a lot of his more cosmic scenes or attempts to show a character's genius have been IMO lacking compared to what he wrote back in the 70's when he was working on Mar-Vell. It's like he's so eager to get to the "pay-off" that the build-up isn't as well thought out at times, and a lot of characters look dumber for it.

Originally posted by Ouallada

In addition to your two debates, I would add a point pertaining to whether DS would have done as well as runner against a gem-wielding Thanos. Without arguing aimlessly about whether the runner was using his gem or not, keeping the context correct (e.g. space gem may not be optimal for DS, runner may only have been tapping it subconsciously, if he even did so) would allow everyone to place his power level better. As to your other debates, I reckon that DS would do the same to SS, and my answer to the other is "yes, probably". That's enough for me to give the runner 5/10 here, based on what I've seen.

What I remember of the Runner/Thanos fight was The Runner hurting Thanos with a speed-blitz out of nowhere and threatening him, then getting @#$%ed up by the Gem. Granted it's been years since I read that or saw any scans.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
[B]
What I remember of the Runner/Thanos fight was The Runner hurting Thanos with a speed-blitz out of nowhere and threatening him, then getting @#$%ed up by the Gem. Granted it's been years since I read that or saw any scans.

On the panels he only destroyed his chair.
Thanos appeared helpless, grasping at it's pieces.
And then, as you find out, it's only a ploy, as Thanos begins to stand upright on nothing.

At no point was anything depicted on panel as actually hitting Thanos.
No fist, no kick, no blast.

Thus Runner never beat Thanos, or even came close.
He never even touched him.

Originally posted by Juntai
On the panels he only destroyed his chair.
Thanos appeared helpless, grasping at it's pieces.
And then, as you find out, it's only a ploy, as Thanos begins to stand upright on nothing.

At no point was anything depicted on panel as actually hitting Thanos.
No fist, no kick, no blast.

Thus Runner never beat Thanos, or even came close.
He never even touched him.

true. he left him 'apparently' helpless, but he never used his power against him so we don't know how runner would have fared in direct combat with thanos.

and i'm a little confused on why everyone thinks the runner is 'all that'. what are his biggest speed feats without the gem? he overpowered the old ss (though i've often wondered if that wasn't explained by his psychic powers -- he could have used his 'likeability' against ss to prevent his drawing on all his power) but . . . 😬

as for ss crossing 'universes': he would likely have crossed several dimensional barriers to reach the decimators -- like taking short cuts. not sure reaching across multiple universes is much of an indication of speed. i'm more impressed with the 6000ly he covered to reach zen-la because that distance WAS known. who knows how much actual 'distance' he covered to find the decimators. 😬

as for the thread -- shrug

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan

My entire point was that Darkseid would probably be able to hit The Runner with something if the fight happened in a comic. I thought you were saying that Surfer likely was using some sort of super-reflexes entirely beyond Darkseid's ability to land the blast to The Runner's chest.

I agree, just as I agree that all speedsters would be able to be tagged in a comic. The point on SS' reflexes is more to showcase runner's ability to completely outspeed a character who has never been blitzed before. It certainly is within DS' ability to hit runner, but I don't see him reacting better to runner's speed better than SS.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Ah, I agree that Starlin's 90's work was still awesome. I was just pointing out that a lot of his more cosmic scenes or attempts to show a character's genius have been IMO lacking compared to what he wrote back in the 70's when he was working on Mar-Vell. It's like he's so eager to get to the "pay-off" that the build-up isn't as well thought out at times, and a lot of characters look dumber for it.

I actually completely agree, although a large part of marvel's cosmology is down to Starlin's work. He has also been the only one to get Thanos' character right, and Warlock's, to a lesser extent. That, IMO, is the real reason behind the clone retcons, not an adversity to his character losing.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
What I remember of the Runner/Thanos fight was The Runner hurting Thanos with a speed-blitz out of nowhere and threatening him, then getting @#$%ed up by the Gem. Granted it's been years since I read that or saw any scans.

My synopsis of the fight:

1) Thanos gets blindsided out of nowhere and his throne gets destroyed before he can react sufficiently.

2) Runner slows down to talk shop with Thanos. Hype and threats are exchanged here.

3) Thanos tries an eyeblast, while runner dodges by literally running rings around Thanos.

4) Thanos states that he was not expecting runner to be so quick, and ends up looking defeated while runner states that he can blitz him to death.

5) Thanos plays possum and tells him the story behind the gems.

6) Thanos devolves runner.

My opinion on this is that Thanos blatantly did not expect the runner to be as fast as he was (even though he clearly knew the runner to be a speedster), and was taken aback before setting his contingency plan into action. It simply isn't in character for Thanos to fool around and be profligate with his chances. A good example would be the grandmaster showing, in which the reader was led to believe that Thanos was suckered, when he was blatantly never in trouble.

Tryco, Ego.. pretty much all of them can take out Darkseid

That Silver Surfer travel speed feat comes from 'Fantastic Four: The End.' It's not canon. Just fyi. Also, the Elders are underrated and so is the Runner's speed. If Superman can outrace the OE, Runner definitely could. Darkseid woud have to resort to his wits, not his power.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

That Silver Surfer travel speed feat comes from 'Fantastic Four: The End.'

It's not canon.

^ Oops. Those scans are actually from the comic, 'The Last Fantastic Four Story.' It was written by Stan Lee a few years back. My bads, got that and 'Fantastic Four: The End' mixed up in my head.