Most Wasteful Death

Too be honest, I actually liked Anakin's whiny self-centered attitude more then Luke's naive outlook on things... at least Anakin would take you out without a second thought if he thought you were a threat. Screw the "Let him live so he can come bite me in the ass later" idea. His only problem is that he was too impressionable... Luke's kind of an idiot buthe's stalwart enough in his idiocy to nnot get turned to the dark side and stuff.

Mace was what Anakin could have been..

And how could anyone say no to that? She's the smexiest.

Originally posted by Gideon

Say what? Out of all of them, Mara was the most interesting by far. Callista cared more about her connection to the Force and subsequent loss of powers than Luke himself and ran off. That's pathetic and emo. Mara Jade? Antithesis and complementary to Luke in every aspect. Her backstory as the personal assassin of his greatest enemy and Imperial allegiance gives her a different view on just about everything. Her subsequent discovery that her master manipulated her left her damaged and, clearly, unwilling to trust others. It wasn't the cliched "love at first sight" but rather a bond that formed and deepened over years of companionship. That is interesting. Callista's "waa! I haff no Force bye Looke Im gonna go off and cry" routine isn't.

Believe or not it is precisely for her background that I felt she would be a great friend and ally to Luke, not a lover. And Callista did indeed ran off, but I was talking about her natural chemistry with Luke, Mara always seemed like a rival, then an ally then something more by the conclusion of the Thrawn saga, but she was never a natural fit.

Antithesis or not, that doesn't qualify her as the best match among Luke's many interests. But I honestly think Gaeriel was the best of Luke's interests there was a maturity and wisdom to her that seemed to compliment Luke's idealism and forthrightness perfectly. Kyle would have been great with Mara if he didn't have a commitment with Jan.

And taking nothing away from Mara she certainly had the most colourful story of all of Luke's interests I just didn't see her as the best fit, Gaeriel's personality and character complimented Luke better imv.

Originally posted by Gideon
Off the top of my head, I can think of two iconic superheroes who are "more powerful" than their counterparts: Superman and He-Man, who are more potent and more skilled than their archenemies: Lex Luthor and Skeletor. Does that prevent them from being threatened? No. Both Luthor and Skeletor (despite at times being portrayed remarkably campy and maniacal) both have limitless ambition and zero morality; both of them are capable of complex plots and schemes that dwarf the imagination, they're smarter than their enemies. It can work fine. It makes the villain even more impressive.

Percisely. This is why I said that Thrawn will be an infinitely more interesting villain than Caedus- I mean, why make the central villain of a story be a supernaturally powerful idiot if he can't even challenge the 'top' hero?

Originally posted by Gideon
It defies logic to summon some magical character to suddenly outclass Luke Skywalker in Force prowess. Palpatine was the greatest and most powerful of all Sith; he's dead. Prior to that, the Jedi Purge dealt with all those who could potentially challenge the Emperor. Basically, the pool of Force users -- even in post-LotF times -- is extremely shallow. While I was exaggerating that Luke was an idiot, he's not (by any means) genius material. Characters like Grand Admiral Thrawn and even Lumiya have threatened Luke because he cannot compete with their vastly more capable intellects and calculating viciousness.

Oh, I know no character can logically challenge Luke Skywalker (as you said, the only one who would have a remote chance, Sidious, is dead. And if he gets resurrected, I'm gonna shoot myself). But, regardless, instead of using a super-intelligent, diabolical guy like Thrawn and Lumiya (she's a gal, but... w/e) be the main anatagonist, they resort to making one of the "I'll crush you with my uber powerz!!!" anatagonists. It's ludicrious when the protagonist outclasses said villain.

Personally, I prefer villains who are both highly intelligent and powerful- an example from comic books, as you've used it above, is Dr. Doom. While I don't much care for the actual personalities of the vast majority of comic book heroes, Doom is both immensely intelligent- a counter to Reed Richard's genius-level intellect- and more powerful, individually, than any one of his foes on the Fantastic Four.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, he doesn't. You're just being whiney.

🙁 I guess I am. But I hate him. And I think that if he dies, Star Wars will be far more interesting, when they can, once again, make villains that can actually, due to their actual power, threaten the heroes.

Originally posted by Sidi-boy
I guess I am. But I hate him. And I think that if he dies, Star Wars will be far more interesting, when they can, once again, make villains that can actually, due to their actual power, threaten the heroes.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone can hate Luke Skywalker, since it's practically impossible to not root for him. He's so powerful and still manages to not turn into an utter Gary Stu (i.e. Revan, Thrawn, Corran Horn).

I personally have never liked Luke. 😐

Not even in the movies.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I personally have never liked Luke. 😐

Not even in the movies.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yeah, I don't see how anyone can hate Luke Skywalker, since it's practically impossible to not root for him. He's so powerful and still manages to not turn into an utter Gary Stu (i.e. Revan, Thrawn, Corran Horn).

Yeah because he's so damn powerful the authors cripple him with either indecision or flat out idiocy, which does NOT due justice to the fact that he's a 60+ year old Jedi Grand Master who shouldn't be struggling with so much internal conflict at this stage in the game. The man has been through more war then any one person should be subjected too, has beaten back the Sith and the Empire more times then anyone can count, reestablished the Jedi from extinction and yet he still doubts himself. His portrayal in Invincible was how I pictured Luke should be. Its easy to not like Luke when he's in the hands of morons.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yeah, I don't see how anyone can hate Luke Skywalker, since it's practically impossible to not root for him. He's so powerful and still manages to not turn into an utter Gary Stu (i.e. Revan, Thrawn, Corran Horn).

He's boring, he's self-righteous, and he seems more like a superhero than a Jedi. That's why I hate him.

And I don't know about Thrawn being a Gary Stu- he's practically the only major anatagonist in the Star Wars timeline who isn't force-sensitive. He needs to be immensely intelligent and cunning, because he has the powers of a regular Chiss officer, so he can't compete with any of the Jedi on a personal scale.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
He's boring, he's self-righteous, and he seems more like a superhero than a Jedi. That's why I hate him.

LOL @ 'boring and self righteous'. Skywalker's conflicts are the root of the entire saga: dealing with his father's legacy, his insecurities following his allegiance to the reborn Emperor, his devastation following the death of his one true love, his subsequent murder of a former lover, his attempted murder of his wayward nephew, his conflicts regarding how to deal with his wayward nephew, and of course, his distance from Ben. Skywalker is the most interesting character left.

And I don't know about Thrawn being a Gary Stu- he's practically the only major anatagonist in the Star Wars timeline who isn't force-sensitive. He needs to be immensely intelligent and cunning, because he has the powers of a regular Chiss officer, so he can't compete with any of the Jedi on a personal scale.

Right, and Revan can't compete with Palpatine, Yoda, or Luke. Does that make him any less of a Gary-Stu? No. You give Timothy Zahn any room, he tries to embellish the importance of his characters. He tried to claim C'baoth is more powerful than the Emperor, that the mere return of Grand Admiral Thrawn = the greatest challenge the New Republic has ever faced. Hell, Mara Jade in The Hand of Thrawn duology places Thrawn on a higher level than the Emperor himself in terms of political manipulation. And the ability to pwn fleets based on artwork? Gay.

I love Thrawn and Zahn's talented in the same way Karpshyn is. They can write good stories, but they also are latent egomaniacs.

Originally posted by Gideon
LOL @ 'boring and self righteous'. Skywalker's conflicts are the root of the entire saga: dealing with his father's legacy, his insecurities following his allegiance to the reborn Emperor, his devastation following the death of his one true love, his subsequent murder of a former lover, his attempted murder of his wayward nephew, his conflicts regarding how to deal with his wayward nephew, and of course, his distance from Ben. Skywalker is the most interesting character left.

Very interesting outlook on the situation. But I never claimed he wasn't complex; sure, as far as complexiety goes, he's top tier, and surpassed only by Anakin Skywalker in the entire Star Wars saga. But that doesn't mean I need to like him more; his personality is rather dull, and, on occasions, he is extremely self-righteous, such as the example with Caedus: "LOLZ, I'm going to go ahead and let the ebil Sith Lord live because if I don't, Ben will turn to the dark side! It doesn't matter that the ebil Sith Lord will kill tons and tons of people, but Ben must neva go to the dark side!!!!". It doesn't make sense. Man, I could tolerate him if he had the same personality quirks such as Obi-Wan, back in the past.

Originally posted by Gideon
Right, and Revan can't compete with Palpatine, Yoda, or Luke. Does that make him any less of a Gary-Stu? No. You give Timothy Zahn any room, he tries to embellish the importance of his characters. He tried to claim C'baoth is more powerful than the Emperor, that the mere return of Grand Admiral Thrawn = the greatest challenge the New Republic has ever faced. Hell, Mara Jade in The Hand of Thrawn duology places Thrawn on a higher level than the Emperor himself in terms of political manipulation. And the ability to pwn fleets based on artwork? Gay.

I love Thrawn and Zahn's talented in the same way Karpshyn is. They can write good stories, but they also are latent egomaniacs.

An author's natural wish is to make their characters all-powerful and 'ultimate'. Thrawn isn't perfect- sure, as far as tactics go, he's the best in Star Wars history, but unlike Revan, he doesn't possess godly powers. He's prone to ridiculous claims, that much is true, but hey... at least it's not the sort of shit Traviss likes to write. In addition, his personality is interesting, and, ultimately, I believe he is a highly interesting villain. I daresay that he's one of the best- if not the best- villains to surface after the Emperor's death. He sure as hell would make a better anatagonist than Caedus would.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Very interesting outlook on the situation. But I never claimed he wasn't complex; sure, as far as complexiety goes, he's top tier, and surpassed only by Anakin Skywalker in the entire Star Wars saga. But that doesn't mean I need to like him more; his personality is rather dull, and, on occasions, he is extremely self-righteous, such as the example with Caedus: "LOLZ, I'm going to go ahead and let the ebil Sith Lord live because if I don't, Ben will turn to the dark side! It doesn't matter that the ebil Sith Lord will kill tons and tons of people, but Ben must neva go to the dark side!!!!". It doesn't make sense. Man, I could tolerate him if he had the same personality quirks such as Obi-Wan, back in the past.

...

Um... so, for the record, your problem is that Luke Skywalker is not emotionally and psychologically perfect and sometimes makes logically stupid decisions to prevent pain and suffering for those that he loves (acting in a manner that most loving people might)? But, weren't you just bitching earlier that he's too perfect and too powerful and whatnot?

You love your contradictions, don't you?

An author's natural wish is to make their characters all-powerful and 'ultimate'. Thrawn isn't perfect- sure, as far as tactics go, he's the best in Star Wars history, but unlike Revan, he doesn't possess godly powers. He's prone to ridiculous claims, that much is true, but hey... at least it's not the sort of shit Traviss likes to write. In addition, his personality is interesting, and, ultimately, I believe he is a highly interesting villain. I daresay that he's one of the best- if not the best- villains to surface after the Emperor's death. He sure as hell would make a better anatagonist than Caedus would.

Err... I didn't deny that Thrawn was an interesting villain. His motivations, personality, and decisions make him absurdly unique. The fact that he's the greatest tactition ever doesn't bother me either. The fact that he forms immeasurably complex plans by looking at a ****ing cartoon painted by a three-year-old retard does bother me. The fact that Zahn becomes erect and allows his homoeroticism manifest in statements like "lulz Thrawn > palpy in political manipulation!" or "the rumor of teh Thrawn's return = greatest threat NR has ever faced!1!" or "I will only bring teh Thrawn back if his brilliance is teh only thing that can stop the next big threat" or "Thrawn used teh Palpy!" is all stupid.

For the record.

a.) The idea that Thrawn > Palpatine in any sort of manipulation was owned by the DESB; Thrawn was so much of a puppet that the Emperor practically had his hand up the Chiss's ass. He was used as a red herring to distract the Republic while he gathered his forces. It was also Palpatine who helped arrange for Thrawn's death. Though, admittedly, that was beyond petty.

b.) The NR's greatest threat = Yuuzhan Vong, Palpatine, Warlord Zsinj, and Thrawn himself. Not the "memory" of Thrawn.

c.) The idea that he'll only bring Thrawn back if Thrawn is "our last hope" speaks for Zahn's aggrandizement and narcissism.

d.) See 'a'.

e.) Outbound Flight was one of the shittiest books I've ever read.

Originally posted by Gideon
...

Um... so, for the record, your problem is that Luke Skywalker is not emotionally and psychologically perfect and sometimes makes logically stupid decisions to prevent pain and suffering for those that he loves (acting in a manner that most loving people might)? But, weren't you just bitching earlier that he's too perfect and too powerful and whatnot?

You love your contradictions, don't you?

Oh, I don't know. First of all, my claim is likely due to a regular whiny "Luke must die!!!" attitude (which, admittedly, I'm very much guilty of). I don't have a problem with him not being psychologically perfect. I think you misunderstood me there- I don't have a problem with his psychological problems. Quite the contrary- I love characters who are disturbed in one form or another, but it shouldn't go into the whole emo category. As for the whole 'save loved ones from going to the dark side' stuff, it, on occasions, borders on completely ridiculous. It can be interpreted as both imperfection and perfection. Let's take the Ben situation, for example. Luke could have killed Caedus and prevented a huge amount of deaths, but he chose to stop it and prevent Ben from falling into the dark side. I personally find it rather idiotic, but is it a representation of 'perfection' or 'imperfection'? There's more than one way to interpret this.

Originally posted by Gideon
Err... I didn't deny that Thrawn was an interesting villain. His motivations, personality, and decisions make him absurdly unique. The fact that he's the greatest tactition ever doesn't bother me either. The fact that he forms immeasurably complex plans by looking at a ****ing cartoon painted by a three-year-old retard does bother me. The fact that Zahn becomes erect and allows his homoeroticism manifest in statements like "lulz Thrawn > palpy in political manipulation!" or "the rumor of teh Thrawn's return = greatest threat NR has ever faced!1!" or "I will only bring teh Thrawn back if his brilliance is teh only thing that can stop the next big threat" or "Thrawn used teh Palpy!" is all stupid.

I agree that he tends to fellate Thrawn rather disturbingly on more than one occasion, but I forgive him, due to the way he writes the character- the way he behaves, the way he acts. The concept of Thrawn is also ingenius- finally, a truly formidable opponent who manages to threaten the Jedi without any sort of immense personal skill. As you put it, he's practically the only good "Lex Luthor"-styled villain in Star Wars history.

Originally posted by Gideon
For the record.

a.) The idea that Thrawn > Palpatine in any sort of manipulation was owned by the DESB; Thrawn was so much of a puppet that the Emperor practically had his hand up the Chiss's ass. He was used as a red herring to distract the Republic while he gathered his forces. It was also Palpatine who helped arrange for Thrawn's death. Though, admittedly, that was beyond petty.

Aside from the rather disturbing analogy of Palps sticking his hand up Thrawn's ass, I completely agree on this. And it's a very sad example of one of Sidious' flaws.

Originally posted by Gideon
b.) The NR's greatest threat = Yuuzhan Vong, Palpatine, Warlord Zsinj, and Thrawn himself. Not the "memory" of Thrawn.

Yup.

Originally posted by Gideon
c.) The idea that he'll only bring Thrawn back if Thrawn is "our last hope" speaks for Zahn's aggrandizement and narcissism.

Sorry, but how so?

Originally posted by Gideon
e.) Outbound Flight was one of the shittiest books I've ever read.

I beg to differ. It was, in my opinion, a rather awesome back, filled with some of the more interesting characters there is to offer.

anakin solo
mara jade
jango fett

Originally posted by Gideon

e.) Outbound Flight was one of the shittiest books I've ever read.

I agree. Biggest let down of the SW literature I've read. Outbound flight wasn't anywhere near as epic as advertised, in-universe or out.

Originally posted by Icy Ninja
Chewbacca, killing off one of the originals is just a crime especially since anakin dies later on making chewie death completly pointless

when does chewie die???? is it in a game cause it isnt in the movies

🙂 🙁 😄 😮 😠 😘 💃

lol i confused

Originally posted by master monkey
🙂 🙁 😄 😮 😠 😘 💃

lol i confused

Second, Chewbacca dies in a novel. Vector Prime. Crushed by a moon. Very sad... I chuckled though.

Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
List people whom you think shouldn't have been killed off for whatever reasons yo want, wither it be just likig the character, or maybe feeling that they had potential to be a much better character, felt that the death was unnecessary etc.

Mara Jade for me, personally, because she was my favorite star wars chick by a mile and I don't see any reason to kill her off.

I personally think Order 66 should've had more survivors than it had hmm

Kit Fisto's death ticks me of as well.

Originally posted by Tangible God
You have A LOT to learn. Firstly, excessive use of smilies tends to indicate mental immaturity...

You're very dismissive of smilies.

Order 66 did have a lot of survivors. They were hunted down and killed. The Dark Lord had 20 years and apparently a super secret teh pwn@ge apprentice. I think thats enough.