Originally posted by carver9
People say that superman and thor are considered high herald level beings. Lets see if they can live up to there reputation. Can they take on true high herald beings and get the majority.CIS is gone in this battle to make it interesting.
This is classic thor.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I know CIS is barred, but did you what to get rid of the "in character" stipulation as well?
without monologues, regrets, ambivalence and doubts about his moral position in any given conflict, he'd just beat the opponent first and ask questions later.
and without the time he takes to do all that moral contemplation, he'd never be hit by anybody under High Herald (the best of the best of Galactus' creations and a select few other cosmics).
Hulk would never touch Surfer, if Surfer didn't feel compelled to try and reason with mindless Hulk or assist/sympathise for Savage Hulk.
Thor wouldn't even see/sense Surfer, if Surfer didn't treat Thor as a friend or as an honourable adversary... it's a very tricky balance expunging CIS.
Originally posted by llagrok
Stardust doesn't have any speedfeats that put him on par with Superman, so Superman speedblitz him for a while. Doesn't matter that he can reform, he clearly feels pain and is stunned whenever punched.Thor shields the two of them, and/or absorbs any attack into his hammer. After Stardust is stunned, Superman will work on Surfer and Thor will absorb Stardust's life force. Surfer can't turn Superman into kryptonite while trying to dodge Superman's attacks, and any attack will either be absorbed by Thor or dodged.
How in the hell is superman stunning a guy (stardust) that took a planet destroying hit and was ok. Stardust is plenty enough durable to take an assault from superman but can superman take a black hole to the brain.
Same rule applies for thor, how is thor going to beat something that his equal couldnt beat. 😮
Originally posted by darthgoober
I know CIS is barred, but did you what to get rid of the "in character" stipulation as well?
I thought that with cis out the window in character is as well. So basically this is everyone fighting at there best. Whatever abilities they have they can use it in this battle, IF IT has been used enough to be something of a regular to the character (I usually say 3 times but other say different).
Originally posted by janus77
it's difficult to keep Surfer's "character", if you eliminate CIS.
'cos a lot of his stupidity is just an extension of his innate pacifism.without monologues, regrets, ambivalence and doubts about his moral position in any given conflict, he'd just beat the opponent first and ask questions later.
and without the time he takes to do all that moral contemplation, he'd never be hit by anybody under High Herald (the best of the best of Galactus' creations and a select few other cosmics).
Hulk would never touch Surfer, if Surfer didn't feel compelled to try and reason with mindless Hulk or assist/sympathise for Savage Hulk.
Thor wouldn't even see/sense Surfer, if Surfer didn't treat Thor as a friend or as an honourable adversary... it's a very tricky balance expunging CIS.
Originally posted by carver9
I thought that with cis out the window in character is as well. So basically this is everyone fighting at there best. Whatever abilities they have they can use it in this battle, IF IT has been used enough to be something of a regular to the character (I usually say 3 times but other say different).
Superman can beat Stardust or atleast hold his own for awhile. Thor can also beat Surfer, anyone who says he cant hasnt Thor beaten Surfer b4, plus there was a time he beaten both Surfer and Adam Warlock in combat(I believe he was in warrior madness at the time though), all it takes is a godblast or something of that power seeing as how he hurt Surfers boss i dont see why Classic Thor cant best Surfer in combat. I also read janus77 that Surfer can stand up to Odin, where do you get that from, Odin brushed Surfer away like a bug then went on to beat thanos up.
Originally posted by RageOfTheGods
Superman can beat Stardust or atleast hold his own for awhile. Thor can also beat Surfer, anyone who says he cant hasnt Thor beaten Surfer b4, plus there was a time he beaten both Surfer and Adam Warlock in combat(I believe he was in warrior madness at the time though), all it takes is a godblast or something of that power seeing as how he hurt Surfers boss i dont see why Classic Thor cant best Surfer in combat. I also read janus77 that Surfer can stand up to Odin, where do you get that from, Odin brushed Surfer away like a bug then went on to beat thanos up.
did u see the surfers in his latest appearance...cuz u wouldnt be saying that if u did
Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok put it this way, are we to assume that Surfer will be willing to kill ruthlessly and in cold blood in a manner similar to Exile's Surfer?
If cis is out then he basically dont care, he is willing to kill if it comes to that. I dont like the word bloodlust because thats when tactical fighting is thrown out the window so I decided to just get rid of cis. So basically all the characters are willing to kill but they still have there mind in doing thing in process without just fighting in a rage.
This fight really depends on surfer and thor since they are the most versatile on the battle field. If they use there powers the right way then either side could get a victory but if thor fights brutish then this would be a losing battle to team 1. He would have to fight like brb fought star dust basically using planet leveling power.
Originally posted by carver9
If cis is out then he basically dont care, he is willing to kill if it comes to that. I dont like the word bloodlust because thats when tactical fighting is thrown out the window so I decided to just get rid of cis. So basically all the characters are willing to kill but they still have there mind in doing thing in process without just fighting in a rage.
CIS rules aren't the same as the "in character" stipulations. A lack of CIS means that an optimal strategy may be used, but still must fall within character. SS will now be able to use an optimal strategy such as k-nite emision for Superman and perhaps a temporal BFR for Thor, but he will not be doing so instantly, as it isn't within his character. Get rid of both, and then and only then do you get that situation you were speaking of.
Originally posted by Ouallada
CIS rules aren't the same as the "in character" stipulations. A lack of CIS means that an optimal strategy may be used, but still must fall within character. SS will now be able to use an optimal strategy such as k-nite emision for Superman and perhaps a temporal BFR for Thor, but he will not be doing so instantly, as it isn't within his character. Get rid of both, and then and only then do you get that situation you were speaking of.
gotcha. Well darthgoober I guess the answer to your question is no.
For some reason... I can see Thor using Mjolnir to absorb or deflect just about anything Surfer and Stardust can throw at him. But I am hesitant to say the same thing in reverse. Superman is the weak link (how many times can that be said?)... but he can be a factor. Stardust may be comprised of energy, but physical force can give him pause. After all, Beta Ray Bill was actually using only his fists (and teeth!) to beat on Stardust for the second round of their fight.
Originally posted by darthgooberNot if he uses a temporal storm to BFR! 😖hifty: What? 😛 I didn't write the comic:
You know what, I just realized it doesn't matter. Even if we stick with "in character" tactics Surfer could easily solo both of them with a temporal BFR since Thor lost his powers of time manipulation.
Originally posted by Ouallada
CIS rules aren't the same as the "in character" stipulations. A lack of CIS means that an optimal strategy may be used, but still must fall within character. SS will now be able to use an optimal strategy such as k-nite emision for Superman and perhaps a temporal BFR for Thor, but he will not be doing so instantly, as it isn't within his character. Get rid of both, and then and only then do you get that situation you were speaking of.
Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.
The Flash example clearly demonstrates that frequency of occurrence has NO impact on "fighting in character". Thus if they're willing to do it once then they're willing to do it every time right out of the gate. If Supes has ever blitzed, he'll blitz right away if it gets him the win. If Surfer's ever used transmutation to win a fight, he'll do it right away if it's what necessarily to win.
CIS on the other hand...
Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively . Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.
...refers to mental limitations that the heroes place on themselves that reduce the effectiveness of those abilities. So if in the comics Supes isn't willing to use his maximum levels of speed and strength with reckless abandon against an opponent who'll likely die from that kind of assault, he's not going to do it when CIS is on. If in the comics Surfer intentionally limits offensive organic transmutation to monsters and the most evil of villains, then that's the way he'll behave in the presence of CIS as well.
At least that's my take on it(feel free to disagree)...
^ That's reasonable. And I've argued that very position several times. But I've actually flip-flopped before on this issue of CIS. And the only problem I have with the above is that there will always be two situations where your version of CIS would ALWAYS limit a character's ability to fight at full capacity: 1) if collateral damage would endanger life; or 2) if the character perenially holds back.
For instance: 1) Superman fighting near a city would never fly at light speeds since he understands that it would cause catastrophic collateral damage to the city and it's inhabitants; and 2) Superman almost never goes all-out on an opponent at the very outset. He almost always takes their measure first and begins peeling away his limitations just enough to make sure he doesn't kill his opponent. And going with this option #1 of CIS interpretation, CIS can limit characters like Superman severely.
Personally, I think the idea of CIS was originally intended to be more limited to actual stupidity and wasn't meant to be extended to ideas of self-imposed limits. Instead of putting emphasis on what you underline, try reading the rule with this alternative emphasis:
Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively . Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.
If you interpret CIS with this emphasis on stupidity... then CIS would never limit a character's ability to fight at full capacity. Superman holding back is a choice, not a natural result of his stupidity and by default, would not be a factor in any hypothetical fight. The rule of full capacity and rule of CIS can be read in conjunction with each other without any conflict. So is this option #2 better than option #1?
Not always. Because if you accept this interpretation, then sometimes the result is... Superman would fight at light speed in Metropolis, and end up killing a lot of innocent people. You basically take the character out of Superman and argue simple power sets. Neither option #1 or option #2 sounds right in their entirety. Therefore, I think the rules need a bit of fine-tuning. And until then, I'd suggest that new thread starters ought to make clear what elements are free for discussion or not. My two cents.