Silver surfer/Star dust vs Superman/Thor

Started by darthgoober5 pages

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ That's reasonable. And I've argued that very position several times. But I've actually flip-flopped before on this issue of CIS. And the only problem I have with the above is that there will always be two situations where your version of CIS would ALWAYS limit a character's ability to fight at full capacity: 1) if collateral damage would endanger life; or 2) if the character perenially holds back.

For instance: 1) Superman fighting near a city would never fly at light speeds since he understands that it would cause catastrophic collateral damage to the city and it's inhabitants; and 2) Superman almost never goes all-out on an opponent at the very outset. He almost always takes their measure first and begins peeling away his limitations just enough to make sure he doesn't kill his opponent. And going with this option #1 of CIS interpretation, CIS can limit characters like Superman severely.

Personally, I think the idea of CIS was originally intended to be more limited to actual stupidity and wasn't meant to be extended to ideas of self-imposed limits. Instead of putting emphasis on what you underline, try reading the rule with this alternative emphasis:

[b]Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively . Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

If you interpret CIS with this emphasis on stupidity... then CIS would never limit a character's ability to fight at full capacity. Superman holding back is a choice, not a natural result of his stupidity and by default, would not be a factor in any hypothetical fight. The rule of full capacity and rule of CIS can be read in conjunction with each other without any conflict. So is this option #2 better than option #1?

Not always. Because if you accept this interpretation, then sometimes the result is... Superman would fight at light speed in Metropolis, and end up killing a lot of innocent people. You basically take the character out of Superman and argue simple power sets. Neither option #1 or option #2 sounds right in their entirety. Therefore, I think the rules need a bit of fine-tuning. And until then, I'd suggest that new thread starters ought to make clear what elements are free for discussion or not. My two cents. [/B]


Yeah the biggest problem is that the rules themselves are open to a lot of subjective interpretation. Truth be told, since our primary rules were pretty much copied directly from CBR whatever standard is held there should also apply here since it's obviously the way the rules were meant to be interpreted. But the thing I've always liked about KMC is that it's members seem to try to find a balance between comics and realism as compared to the extremes found at Herochat and CBR. We don't buy Thing tagging lightspeed characters just because they "forget" their speed in comics, but we look to what the characters actually DO rather to establish their limits rather than leap to assumptions because they kinda make sense(like attributing Thor with blitzing capabilities). So that's kinda the mindset I try to use in my interpretation of the rules.

But don't fret because the Mods are currently in the process of clarifying the rules a bit, it's just taking them a while to get everything sorted out(they're currently accepting suggestions via PM if you want to throw your two cents their way).

Well doesn't Supes start out at a higher base level then anyone in the fight, if im not mistaken doesnt he have KO potential to knock Sufer out of star. Considering that Norin needs time to fuse himself with the power cosmic i dont see why Supes couldnt simply rush him before he even has the chance to.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Well doesn't Supes start out at a higher base level then anyone in the fight, if im not mistaken doesnt he have KO potential to knock Sufer out of star. Considering that Norin needs time to fuse himself with the power cosmic i dont see why Supes couldnt simply rush him before he even has the chance to.

Huh?

Sorry I mean sufer needs time to amp himself to access great levels of strenght and speed correct, his base isnt as high as Supes base.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Sorry I mean sufer needs time to amp himself to access great levels of strenght and speed correct, his base isnt as high as Supes base.

Since when?
Surfer isn't ****in' Goku, lol.

Anyway, Sups would come in front of Surfer OR Stardust with the power of a baby kitten after all his weaknesses would have been exploited in matter of second.

I'm constantly amazed at the respect Surfer gets. Most deserved, granted, but I always feel like he's a touch overrated.

I'd like to say the latter duo, but I don't dare try to defend myself. Especially with goober trolling around ( 😛 )....maybe if pr or someone came by to help me with Kal's end of things, since I've had the "Thor v. various heralds" discussion multiple times.

I jsut dont see how people can assum SS is physically as strong or durable as supes when he hasnt had any feats to really put him that high....hell he isnt even physically stronger then hulk.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I jsut dont see how people can assum SS is physically as strong or durable as supes when he hasnt had any feats to really put him that high....hell he isnt even physically stronger then hulk.

Using the Hulk as a basis to determine strength is a bad idea, he doesn't have a limit cap, so in essence not too many characters can boast that they can lift more than he has at his strongest.

Superb fight.

Gut says Surfers Matter Manip and tp will eventually be able to neutralize Supes though, and swing it.

SS/SD Majority

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I jsut dont see how people can assum SS is physically as strong or durable as supes when he hasnt had any feats to really put him that high....hell he isnt even physically stronger then hulk.
I don't think anybody assumes Surfer is as physically strong as Superman. At neither concomitant base or concomitant amped levels. Theoretically, he could amp himself past Superman. As far as I know, he has little to no on-panel strength feats putting him above Superman.

Durability wise? Surfer's durability is near the absolute peak of comic physical durability. I've never seen his skin cut, scratched, dented or shattered by anthing less than cosmic forces. I've never seen him knocked out by purely physical means. I'm sure there are some, but compared to the many dozens of foes who have bruised or drawn blood from Superman? With purely physical strength? And I am not counting the times he is weakened by Kryptonite, either. With regards to energy durability, I think Surfer is also well above Superman.

Think about it this way. Surfer has fought heralds in full fledged black holes without any amping. To my recollection, Superman has done nothing to approach that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't think anybody assumes Surfer is as physically strong as Superman. At neither concomitant base or concomitant amped levels. Theoretically, he could amp himself past Superman. As far as I know, he has little to no on-panel strength feats putting him above Superman.

Durability wise? Surfer's durability is near the absolute peak of comic physical durability. I've never seen his skin cut, scratched, dented or shattered by anthing less than cosmic forces. I've never seen him knocked out by purely physical means. I'm sure there are some, but compared to the many dozens of foes who have bruised or drawn blood from Superman? With purely physical strength? And I am not counting the times he is weakened by Kryptonite, either. With regards to energy durability, I think Surfer is also well above Superman.

Think about it this way. Surfer has fought heralds in full fledged black holes without any amping. To my recollection, Superman has done nothing to approach that.

you make pretty posts 👆

Originally posted by darthgoober
Upon review, I have to disagree because the "fighting in character" stipulation is actually a part of the full capacity rule...

Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.

The Flash example clearly demonstrates that frequency of occurrence has NO impact on "fighting in character". Thus if they're willing to do it once then they're willing to do it every time right out of the gate. If Supes has ever blitzed, he'll blitz right away if it gets him the win. If Surfer's ever used transmutation to win a fight, he'll do it right away if it's what necessarily to win.

I'm not going to disagree entirely, BUT (there is always a but, isn't there?) using Flash as an example to prove or disprove the full capacity rule is not exactly a representative sample. Firstly, superspeed is one of the most difficult powers to write consistently and believably when you have a rogue gallery like Flash's, none of whom should be able to last more than a couple of panels with him. Allowing a certain degree of leeway for that is plausible, and probably necessary. Secondly, as many have mentioned before, yourself included, Flash is a straight up hero, and that means that he intrinsically can be assumed to not go for the kill immediately.

Additionally, speedblitzing is a viable tactic, and the connotation that I get is that it is as much a possible tactic as transmutation is, not that it is a constantly replicated occurence from the get-go of every fight.

Simply put, I don't believe that this particular set of rules is adequate, because fighting in character and speedblitzing for the instant kill is oxymoronic. The only difference is that the Flash example supports the latter solely, while forgetting about the limitations imposed by the former. The only real compromise is to assume full access to powersets within character. IE Superman blitzing from the start once doesn't mean it fulfils the "in character" criteria completely, but rather means that it is within his powerset to do so -- one rule absolutely should not overwrite the other.

Originally posted by darthgoober

CIS on the other hand...

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively . Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

...refers to mental limitations that the heroes place on themselves that reduce the effectiveness of those abilities. So if in the comics Supes isn't willing to use his maximum levels of speed and strength with reckless abandon against an opponent who'll likely die from that kind of assault, he's not going to do it when CIS is on. If in the comics Surfer intentionally limits offensive organic transmutation to monsters and the most evil of villains, then that's the way he'll behave in the presence of CIS as well.

At least that's my take on it(feel free to disagree)...

Now, this may be simply an argument about semantics, as the only salient difference I see is that I have split stupidity into CIS and the "in character" stipulation, but I'm going to make a few points just in case.

"Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks."

It is this portion that caused me to make my conclusions about CIS. Apparently, that is not congruent with surfer choosing not to transmute offensively or choosing not to bullrush immediately, because CIS is described as something that occurs independently of plot, which is the only reason SS does not attempt to encase his enemies in adamantium while keeping them alive immediately. The portion that you underlined also leads me to believe that CIS is an inherent flaw, and not one of choice, as OneDumbGo mentioned.

Thus, it is entirely believable that character limitations and CIS aren't inherently the same thing. In any case, the full capacity rule should never be imposed over the character rule unless bloodlust is in effect, and the best possible compromise has already been stated by me above.

I do agree that it is necessary for a discussion on the rules, even though the mods may not condone it. Communicating solely via PM doesn't allow ideas and opinions to be shared in the open -- the discussion could be contained in a single thread, but should be allowed as long as civility is maintained.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Additionally, speedblitzing is a viable tactic, and the connotation that I get is that it is as much a possible tactic as transmutation is, not that it is a constantly replicated occurence from the get-go of every fight.

Simply put, I don't believe that this particular set of rules is adequate, because fighting [b]in character and speedblitzing for the instant kill is oxymoronic. The only difference is that the Flash example supports the latter solely, while forgetting about the limitations imposed by the former. The only real compromise is to assume full access to powersets within character. IE Superman blitzing from the start once doesn't mean it fulfils the "in character" criteria completely, but rather means that it is within his powerset to do so -- one rule absolutely should not overwrite the other.[/b]

With regards to this... I think Flash is the only character where speedblitz is viable. There are plenty of examples of him ending a fight before anyone's even noticed. Whether it's disarming them or putting them in jail instantly. There are dozens of times where, once he engages an opponent, BOOM! Fight's over. By virtue of the Speedforce, he can contain any collateral damage.

I can't count past the fingers on my hand whether Superman has ended a fight at the outset with his superspeed once he's engaged his opponent. Criminals, human soldiers and cannon fodder? Yes. Foes like Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Mongul, Equus, etc.? No. Most times when he does actually resort to speedblitz, the fight's not even over. He places limits on himself to prevent collateral damage AND he places precise limits on power output for fear of killing someone. Speedblitz doesn't really work for Superman.

And don't get me started on the utterly ridiculous fallacy of the "uber pwnzorz speedblitz," whereby people assume that Superman can fly at FTL speeds and hit the opponent with 1,000,000X planet-busting punches in .0000000001 seconds. That's like arguing that Silver Surfer could evade at FTL speeds and open up 1,000,000X black holes around an opponent in .0000000001 seconds. Only difference is that Surfer actually appears capable of creating black holes casually whereas Superman does not unleash his strongest punches with the same commensurate casualness.

If you haven't guessed, I can't stand when people cite "uber pwnzorz speedblitz" in battles. 😠

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Superman does not unleash his strongest punches with the same commensurate casualness.

If you haven't guessed, I can't stand when people cite "uber pwnzorz speedblitz" in battles. 😠

this post is quite correct, but i think the OP was trying to get a battle going where none of the combatants had any collateral damage to worry about. I assume the OP wants a full on all out war, where NO ONE, not even our kind hearted Surfers and Supermen care about shattering all the windows in a city, killing all the innocents.

So for all intents and purposes, why wouldnt Superman Fight at the Fastest Speed he possibly could. He has no character restraints here - in this battle.

Commensurate casualness - by the stipulations set - is out the window, (thats how i took the stipulations) Everyone is going for the kill with full use of there abilities..so if you're telling me that Supes CAN'T blitz, then oki..thats a different argument, but it seems to me some people are still arguing that he WONT blitz here..and i cant see a reason why he wouldnt at least try.

-2 cents-

Originally posted by Juk3n
this post is quite correct, but i think the OP was trying to get a battle going where none of the combatants had any collateral damage to worry about. I assume the OP wants a full on all out war, where NO ONE, not even our kind hearted Surfers and Supermen care about shattering all the windows in a city, killing all the innocents.

So for all intents and purposes, why wouldnt Superman Fight at the Fastest Speed he possibly could. He has no character restraints here - in this battle.

Commensurate casualness - by the stipulations set - is out the window, (thats how i took the stipulations) Everyone is going for the kill with full use of there abilities..so if you're telling me that Supes CAN'T blitz, then oki..thats a different argument, but it seems to me some people are still arguing that he WONT blitz here..and i cant see a reason why he wouldnt at least try.

-2 cents-

I guess you didnt understand his post.

You have a two heralds who can make black holes with ease, one who is the most durable hero character in his universe, the other who can shrug off all but the most extreme physical attacks and has incredible stamina alongside impressive energy capabilities along with his partner, vs one top notch brick with potent but limited energy capabilities, as well as a glaring potential weakness and his ally, the guy with a hammer that can do impressive things, should the wielder be smart enough to use it.

Classic Thor would use the blunt trauma end of the hammer mostly, and suffer for it here.

Team two can win, but it's an uphill battle imo.

Originally posted by UniOmni
You have a two heralds who can make black holes with ease, one who is the most durable hero character in his universe, the other who can shrug off all but the most extreme physical attacks and has incredible stamina alongside impressive energy capabilities along with his partner, vs one top notch brick with potent but limited energy capabilities, as well as a glaring potential weakness and his ally, the guy with a hammer that can do impressive things, should the wielder be smart enough to use it.

Classic Thor would use the blunt trauma end of the hammer mostly, and suffer for it here.

Team two can win, but it's an uphill battle imo.

Thats why I said that this battle depends on thor and the way he fight since he is one of the most versatile on the battle field (below surfer). Thor can fight either of the two since he dont have ANY weakness but if thor was to fight star dust and superman was to fight surfer that when the fight would be over with immediately. Thor has shown that he can hang with surfer and overrall thor is just as versatile and powerful as the surfer. I give stardust the win over supes but supes would last long enough giving time for thor to take out ss and then it would just be a repeat of brb vs stardust destroying 100s of planets during the process.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
With regards to this... I think Flash is the only character where speedblitz is viable. There are plenty of examples of him ending a fight before anyone's even noticed. Whether it's disarming them or putting them in jail instantly. There are dozens of times where, once he engages an opponent, BOOM! Fight's over. By virtue of the Speedforce, he can contain any collateral damage.

I can't count past the fingers on my hand whether Superman has ended a fight at the outset with his superspeed once he's engaged his opponent. Criminals, human soldiers and cannon fodder? Yes. Foes like Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Mongul, Equus, etc.? No. Most times when he does actually resort to speedblitz, the fight's not even over. He places limits on himself to prevent collateral damage AND he places precise limits on power output for fear of killing someone. Speedblitz doesn't really work for Superman.

And don't get me started on the utterly ridiculous fallacy of the "uber pwnzorz speedblitz," whereby people assume that Superman can fly at FTL speeds and hit the opponent with 1,000,000X planet-busting punches in .0000000001 seconds. That's like arguing that Silver Surfer could evade at FTL speeds and open up 1,000,000X black holes around an opponent in .0000000001 seconds. Only difference is that Surfer actually appears capable of creating black holes casually whereas Superman does not unleash his strongest punches with the same commensurate casualness.

If you haven't guessed, I can't stand when people cite "uber pwnzorz speedblitz" in battles. 😠

Precisely, speedblitzing is a viable tactic for Flash, not one that we logically argue 10000/10. The same applies to Superman, WW etc to a lesser degree. My basic argument in the portion you highlighted was simply that it is incongruous with character for Flash, or any hero for that matter, to instantly speedblitz. Hell, I don't think that surfer would instantly use transmutation offensively, but I see his using of incapacitative transmutation as much more likely and in character than the much lauded speedblitz.

Surfer and stardust win definitely but regarding the issue of CIS, It is an issue that needs to be thrashed out and i beleive the mods really need to clearly explain the rules. For one the major issue of disputation comes when we debate charcters who have shown NO or little on panel proof of something which logically is within their powersets. MY stance on this issue is that evn if it is logically within their powersets, if the on panel evidence showing their failure to do this is overwhelming then i dont think such tactics should be used in debates. The most glaring example of this is the speedbitz tactic that is commonly used by people. There is howver a fine line in my opinion between a charcter continuosly showing the inability to perfrom an action and a charcater willingly choosing NOT to do it. For example in the case of superman speedblitzing should be a viable tactic because it seems it is a decision he willingly makes and going by the full capacity rule i think it should be viable.( that is if we use the full capacity rule without conisdering CIS and in charcter stipulations as well)

The problem howver occurs when we look at the the " in character" part of the rules, the CIS part of the rules and the part of the rules that says a charcter should fight at "full capacity"using all the powers available to them to the best of their abilities. In line with what has bin said by many in this thread these rules are certainly hard to interpret without one taking precedence over the other. Going back to the superman issue if we begin to consider "the in charcter issue"" then doubt can be laid to the superman blitz argument. This is because if superman was to fight ïn charcter" he would fight based on how his charcter has been established throughout his comic history and this would mean that supes would certainly not start a fight with the instant 1billion punches per second blitz. Now I believe CIS is supposed to be taken as ïn charcter". Therefore CIS has to be clearly defined. IF we consider CIS to include personal decisions taken by a charcter then majority of the arguments like supes ultra blitzing and surfer creating black holes would not hold. But if CIS is taken to be the written limitations on a charcters use of their power which are not as a result of personal decision then such arguments can hold up. I however still have a problem when it comes to the staement "in charcter" because i believe that an in charcter means the personality or established behaviour of the charcter throughout their history. IMO this means that evn if personal decisions are not considered CIS arguments like supes bltzing would not hold up because of his established "charcter".

I consider the statement in the rules that says a charcter should fight to full capacity while still remaining in charcter considerbaly ambiguous. HOw do u fight to full capacity while remaining in character especially when your" charcter"limits or disables u from regualrly using ur power to full capacity or to the best of ur ability?

Personally i debate using charcters to the best of their abilities that they have been shown to be capable of in comics( Pretty bad Englsih but i dont hv lots of time). Also for me the full capacity rule takes precedence over the ambiguous"in charcter"reference. Therefore superman blitzing a being is certainly possible just like SS creating Blak holes is possible. I however have problems reg$rding the one billion punches per second argument just like i have problems with the surfer creating blackholes inside of a persons eyeball argument( evn though that one has bin referenced by surfer but not actually performed).

The reason for this is that the surfer has never shown in comics that he is able to use his powers to that degree and similarly while supes has shown blitzing abilities he also has never shown the ability to blitz to that degree. In other words they have not shown themselves as actually capable of performing such feats in comics.

Just my thoughts on the whole CIS full capacity issue.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Surfer and stardust win definitely but regarding the issue of CIS, It is an issue that needs to be thrashed out and i beleive the mods really need to clearly explain the rules. For one the major issue of disputation comes when we debate charcters who have shown NO or little on panel proof of something which logically is within their powersets. MY stance on this issue is that evn if it is logically within their powersets, if the on panel evidence showing their failure to do this is overwhelming then i dont think such tactics should be used in debates. The most glaring example of this is the speedbitz tactic that is commonly used by people. There is howver a fine line in my opinion between a charcter continuosly showing the inability to perfrom an action and a charcater willingly choosing NOT to do it. For example in the case of superman speedblitzing should be a viable tactic because it seems it is a decision he willingly makes and going by the full capacity rule i think it should be viable.( that is if we use the full capacity rule without conisdering CIS and in charcter stipulations as well)

The problem howver occurs when we look at the the " in character" part of the rules, the CIS part of the rules and the part of the rules that says a charcter should fight at "full capacity"using all the powers available to them to the best of their abilities. In line with what has bin said by many in this thread these rules are certainly hard to interpret without one taking precedence over the other. Going back to the superman issue if we begin to consider "the in charcter issue"" then doubt can be laid to the superman blitz argument. This is because if superman was to fight ïn charcter" he would fight based on how his charcter has been established throughout his comic history and this would mean that supes would certainly not start a fight with the instant 1billion punches per second blitz. Now I believe CIS is supposed to be taken as ïn charcter". Therefore CIS has to be clearly defined. IF we consider CIS to include personal decisions taken by a charcter then majority of the arguments like supes ultra blitzing and surfer creating black holes would not hold. But if CIS is taken to be the written limitations on a charcters use of their power which are not as a result of personal decision then such arguments can hold up. I however still have a problem when it comes to the staement "in charcter" because i believe that an in charcter means the personality or established behaviour of the charcter throughout their history. IMO this means that evn if personal decisions are not considered CIS arguments like supes bltzing would not hold up because of his established "charcter".

I consider the statement in the rules that says a charcter should fight to full capacity while still remaining in charcter considerbaly ambiguous. HOw do u fight to full capacity while remaining in character especially when your" charcter"limits or disables u from regualrly using ur power to full capacity or to the best of ur ability?

Personally i debate using charcters to the best of their abilities that they have been shown to be capable of in comics( Pretty bad Englsih but i dont hv lots of time). Also for me the full capacity rule takes precedence over the ambiguous"in charcter"reference. Therefore superman blitzing a being is certainly possible just like SS creating Blak holes is possible. I however have problems reg$rding the one billion punches per second argument just like i have problems with the surfer creating blackholes inside of a persons eyeball argument( evn though that one has bin referenced by surfer but not actually performed).

The reason for this is that the surfer has never shown in comics that he is able to use his powers to that degree and similarly while supes has shown blitzing abilities he also has never shown the ability to blitz to that degree. In other words they have not shown themselves as actually capable of performing such feats in comics.

Just my thoughts on the whole CIS full capacity issue.

Beautiful post. Thats why I always argue when someone say that wonder woman, superman, gladiator, etc.. are going to do continuous blitz I ask for proof due to the cis. All have been hit by bricks and all of them have been overcome by bricks and thats why I just find it hysterical that they can just say that sentry would blits the hulk and the fight would be done when on panel show otherwise.

The mods really need to read this post because maybe they'll get a better understanding of what a lot of people on the forum argue about and it would make debating more interesting instead of a match ending in a mere blitz when comics show something totally different.

If we were to use mere blitz all the time then since wolverine blitz quick silver and blitzed speed demon along with other characters which shows his speed >> kalibak, I could just say that wolverine could blitz kalibak before he even got the chance to blink BUT we all know that kalibak would stomp wolverine.

You might not meant what I said but overrall nice post.