Originally posted by CosmicCometI think it is it. Because I'm already turned off from posting anywhere here because of it, for the most part.
No, that's not it.We have more thorough, 10,000 character breaking multi-post debates here than happens on comic vs, precisely because we argue feats more intensely.
It's just we have less characters to argue for.
Are you seriously that pissed that I never conceded a win? Sorry that I don't subscribe to the belief that every character is meaningless unless he has story based feats to back it up.
By that logic, Link could defeat the entire Liberation Army because no one within it has any actual feats. Good thing you and I both know in actuality that wouldn't happen.
Have fun with your dead forum, bro. I guess you win. 😬
Originally posted by Blight
Are you seriously that pissed that I never conceded a win? Sorry that I don't subscribe to the belief that every character is meaningless unless he has story based feats to back it up.By that logic, Link could defeat the entire Liberation Army because no one within it has any actual feats. Good thing you and I both know in actuality that wouldn't happen.
Have fun with your dead forum, bro. I guess you win. 😬
You did concede a win? When you admitted you couldn't prove your case.
I'm not mad about anything at all really. I'm just perplexed that you are upset about not having a case to prove? I mean, that's just basic. You can argue something that has feats and no character, but you can't really argue something that has character and no feats--or even a discernible alternate way of gauging their levels.
And no, there are people within the Toran Republic with feats.
Stallion alone would cause Link problems with his speed.
My thing, in general, is that I'm trying more to ascertain what would actually happen. I get that feats are the debatable thing to do.
Let me ask you this. Who do you ACTUALLY think would win in the fight? My guess is Link, but I think that you can understand my feelings on the subject. It's extremely frustrating to deal with two completely different forms of the medium. One doesn't have FMV's, or any real cutscenes to deal with. We have a character who you are supposed to represent (doesn't even talk) so everything you do is what he does. But when you have an artifact that is the "Embodiment of Life and Death", one that is of 27 different things whom are considered the Gods of the World and have different motives, it's hard to swallow that a Sword that was blessed by gods (not a sword that is a god itself) would somehow overpower it. I get that the Feats suggest it would, but only because the former doesn't have anything to DISprove it. So you get to hold the higher ground per forum rules, but it doesn't change the fact that essentially you're telling me that a Sword made by gods is better than a God itself. I dunno about you but I don't think Perseus' sword is doing shit to Hades, know what I mean?
Again, you hold the high ground and I will concede to that. Skyward Sword Link has the feats to back up his forum win. I just don't think that's saying all that much, to be honest.
And Stallion is the only one with any real hard feats. I can't think of anyone else. Maybe Joshua, since he can summon dragons that will kill scores of an army.
I have to wonder, if a Suikoden were made this year, whether or not we'd be having a different conversation.
Hmm. The problem with the word "god" is that it does not indicate a character's power level very well. Best I can do is more Legend of Zelda, but you know the Great Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu from Ocarina of Time and Valoo from Wind Waker? All of them are technically considered gods, being the patron deities of the Kokiri, Zora, and Rito, respectively. Ganondorf killed two of them. Also in Wind Waker, there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOwxFDApoTE#t=5m10s
That guy? God of winds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIIdL7VQPFE#t=42s
The guy Link is hurting with arrows? God of cyclones.
The long and short of it is that the word "god" doesn't have the same meaning across different fictional universes, and it certainly does not imply a consistent level of power among them. If it did, Link's Fierce Deity Mask, known for turning him into a god, would be an auto-win against most opponents. In reality, there's nothing backing that up, especially when Zelda deities have such wildly varying power levels. A god in one game is not equal to a god in another, and there are mortal characters than could annihilate both Lezend of Zelda and Suikoden at the same time without being considered gods.
On the other hand, there is consistent, concrete proof that the Master Sword is more powerful than the Triforce of Power (and in A Link to the Past, the whole Triforce.) Din's power, which created the physical universe, doesn't stand up to it. It holds back the effects of another dimension, protects it user from quite a few things, and routinely wrecks Ganon powered by a piece of creation. So I see no particular reason to give a win to Soul Eater just because the word "god" is associated with it.
If more examples are needed, how about God of War? There's some time where Kratos wields the Blades of Athena and kills multiple gods with them. He steals Hades' hooks, which affected Titans. He steals whatever weapons Hercules had and used them to hurt Titans, and Hercules isn't even a god. Hephaestus' whole thing is making weapons that kill gods. If a weapon blessed by god couldn't hurt another god, there'd be no point in using them.
Originally posted by The Scenario
Hmm. The problem with the word "god" is that it does not indicate a character's power level very well. Best I can do is more Legend of Zelda, but you know the Great Deku Tree and Jabu-Jabu from Ocarina of Time and Valoo from Wind Waker? All of them are technically considered gods, being the patron deities of the Kokiri, Zora, and Rito, respectively. Ganondorf killed two of them. Also in Wind Waker, there's this:
Right, this only gives me the impression that the "Gods" of the Zelda Universe aren't really up to snuff. The only thing that has come close to killing a "God" of the Suikoden Universe, was posessing using 2 other "Gods" to destroy it. Arrows wouldn't do the trick, they aren't technically corporeal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOwxFDApoTE#t=5m10s
That guy? God of winds.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIIdL7VQPFE#t=42s
The guy Link is hurting with arrows? God of cyclones.
It's not really my fault that Gods suck ass in Zelda.
The long and short of it is that the word "god" doesn't have the same meaning across different fictional universes, and it certainly does not imply a consistent level of power among them. If it did, Link's Fierce Deity Mask, known for turning him into a god, would be an auto-win against most opponents. In reality, there's nothing backing that up, especially when Zelda deities have such wildly varying power levels. A god in one game is not equal to a god in another, and there are mortal characters than could annihilate both Lezend of Zelda and Suikoden at the same time without being considered gods.
This I can agree with.
On the other hand, there is consistent, concrete proof that the Master Sword is more powerful than the Triforce of Power (and in A Link to the Past, the whole Triforce.) Din's power, which created the physical universe, doesn't stand up to it. It holds back the effects of another dimension, protects it user from quite a few things, and routinely wrecks Ganon powered by a piece of creation. So I see no particular reason to give a win to Soul Eater just because the word "god" is associated with it.
Yeah it pretty much boils down to opinion at that point. Though I don't, however, think it's opinion that Tir would lose to Link if it's the Link from Legend of Zelda (As the thread name implies).
If more examples are needed, how about God of War? There's some time where Kratos wields the Blades of Athena and kills multiple gods with them. He steals Hades' hooks, which affected Titans. He steals whatever weapons Hercules had and used them to hurt Titans, and Hercules isn't even a god. Hephaestus' whole thing is making weapons that kill gods. If a weapon blessed by god couldn't hurt another god, there'd be no point in using them.That could be argued that since they were forged by gods, they could kill gods. Not to mention the gods wouldn't have won in the first place had their weapons not worked. God of War tends to really hammer it home that Gods are Mortal and live their lives just as we do, albeit with more power and much higher up (Barring Poseidon and Hades).
I had totally forgotten about this debate, hence the length for a response 😛
Originally posted by Blight
Right, this only gives me the impression that the "Gods" of the Zelda Universe aren't really up to snuff. The only thing that has come close to killing a "God" of the Suikoden Universe, was posessing using 2 other "Gods" to destroy it. Arrows wouldn't do the trick, they aren't technically corporeal.
Some of them are, some of them aren't. It ranges from creating the universe and controlling time to giving people wings or changing he direction of the wind. Or just not doing anything at all and being worshiped anyway. I'm just wondering where exactly the Suikoden gods are on that scale, if at all. If it's still the 1/27th of the power that created the universe, then we're still talking about a sword that can kill and protect from 1/3rd of the power that created the universe. I'm not really clear on why the sword is being considered less powerful in that case.
It's not really my fault that Gods suck ass in Zelda.
That wasn't really my point. Weak gods aren't a feature limited to Zelda, it was just the most convenient example. There are universes with gods who rule over single blades of grass, or gods dedicated to hangovers. Again, the word "god" does not automatically imply power, so we need some other way to measure that. Feats are nice, but legends or statements can work in a pinch.
Question. Are the Runes considered gods?
Yeah it pretty much boils down to opinion at that point. Though I don't, however, think it's opinion that Tir would lose to Link if it's the Link from Legend of Zelda (As the thread name implies).
If it is the original Legend of Zelda, Tir probably does win. I won't dispute that one. However, 1/3rd being greater than 1/27th is a fact, how does opinion factor into it?
That could be argued that since they were forged by gods, they could kill gods. Not to mention the gods wouldn't have won in the first place had their weapons not worked. God of War tends to really hammer it home that Gods are Mortal and live their lives just as we do, albeit with more power and much higher up (Barring Poseidon and Hades).
Not necessarily the mortal bit, but otherwise, yes. Greek deities have human flaws and traits, but they are rather consistently above and aren't considered mortals. However, the Master Sword is quite clearly a divine weapon. It was known as the Goddess Sword because it was created by Hylia, and was then tempered by the sacred flames of Din, Farore, and Nayru into the Master Sword. That's 4 goddesses involved in the creation of this one weapon, not to mention the consistency in which it defeats the Triforce of Power, or that Link is also the usual holder of the Triforce of Courage.
If it's down to a game of "who has more god stuff," Link is a contender.
I had totally forgotten about this debate, hence the length for a response 😛
It happens.
Originally posted by BlightIt's not really my fault that Gods suck ass in Zelda.
Ok, I'm just jumping in here, so Im not sure what the context is (to lazy to bother), but I will say that If these are the Goddesses that you're referring to, than please understand that they wield absolute power. Need proof?
2:15 A god speaking about the Gods
Also, wassup my Hylian brother, Scenario?
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Also, wassup my Hylian brother, Scenario?
Nothing much. This thread is the most excitement we've had in ages.
As for context, we were mostly talking about Zephos and Cyclos as examples of gods that aren't all powerful. What with "god" being a title and not a measure of power and all.
If it is the original Legend of Zelda, Tir probably does win. I won't dispute that one. However, 1/3rd being greater than 1/27th is a fact, how does opinion factor into it?
I don't think you're understanding my point. There is a difference between BEING a god and being a Weapon created by a god.
I understand it's confusing since it's multiple games. Rune's are considered the Gods of the Suikoden Universe. The one in question embodies the notion of life and Death. The Master Sword is a sword created by one of three gods (Or Apparently 4 now, which is it?). I don't see how that makes it more powerful (Not saying it rule's it out, however). The Fractional debate doesn't really apply is what I'm getting at, unless you're saying that the Master Sword embodies the power of whatever Goddess made it... If not, then it's probably more like 1/91564006548945489450456406 OF 1/3rd against 1/27. This boils down to Opinion once again. Unfortunately, Suikoden (Being Sprite Based) doesn't have enough feats to beat a composite link in a forum battle, if that helps explain my stance, however.
Originally posted by Blight
I don't think you're understanding my point. There is a difference between BEING a god and being a Weapon created by a god.
Yes, but it's not like the difference is that apparent when the weapon is capable of overpowering the god in question. That's my point: The Master Sword has shown the ability to resist, seal, and/or kill a being powered by 1/3rd of creation. If it helps, compare the Soul Eater to the Triforce of Power. One embodies Life and Death, the other embodies the concept of Power. Since the Master Sword regularly deals with one of these things, I don't really see why the other is somehow exempt.
I understand it's confusing since it's multiple games. Rune's are considered the Gods of the Suikoden Universe. The one in question embodies the notion of life and Death. The Master Sword is a sword created by one of three gods (Or Apparently 4 now, which is it?). I don't see how that makes it more powerful (Not saying it rule's it out, however). The Fractional debate doesn't really apply is what I'm getting at, unless you're saying that the Master Sword embodies the power of whatever Goddess made it... If not, then it's probably more like 1/91564006548945489450456406 OF 1/3rd against 1/27. This boils down to Opinion once again. Unfortunately, Suikoden (Being Sprite Based) doesn't have enough feats to beat a composite link in a forum battle, if that helps explain my stance, however.
'k, this might also be a little confusing. There are 3 creator deities in Zelda: Din (Power), Nayru (Wisdom), and Farore (Courage) that created the universe. The Goddess Sword was created by a 4th goddess named Hylia, who is not creator deity (she didn't help create the universe, essentially) but instead protected the Triforce. Later, the Goddess Sword was imbued with power from all 4 goddesses and was turned into the Master Sword.
However, I'm not saying the Master Sword is greater than 1/3rd because it was created by a goddess or that it embodies however much of her power. I'm saying it's greater than 1/3rd because it routinely goes up against the Triforce of Power and wins. Maybe the Master Sword is 1 millionth of 1/3; I just don't think it matters that you didn't create the universe when you're capable of beating the one who, for all intents and purposes, actually did.