Originally posted by BackFire
To be perfectly honest and objective, I heard more substance from Obama/Biden during their convention speeches than I heard from McCain/Palin during theirs.
I agree, but we could be subjective a little.
Personally, I think McCain as hard as he might try, will come off as dry, old and tired and not be able to remove the image of "four more years" from the swing voters' minds; that's who he has to sway to win.
Originally posted by Bardock42Didn't see that ermm 😮
Amazing how you always keep us up to date http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f11/t492502.html 😛
Originally posted by BackFireWell, the way of his bias does kinda help. When the opposition just sets you up to kick in the reasoned argument you have it easy.
Olbermann's plus comes in the form of the writing for his show. He has some witty lines sometimes. And he can actually form competent and sound argument despite his bias.
Originally posted by Robtard
I agree, but we could be subjective a little.Personally, I think McCain as hard as he might try, will come off as dry, old and tired and not be able to remove the image of "four more years" from the swing voters' minds; that's who he has to sway to win.
Saddleback?
And that was before Palin.
I predict a draw at the worst, or a slight victory for McCain in the debates.
Obama will make lots of good points about what he would do on this domestic issue or that foreign policy, then McCain will say "Yeah, but you've never done any of that shizzle. I have. And better than you." and that will be that.
Biden is saying how he thinks he's the underdog now. (probably to set his own expectations lower, I assume)
Originally posted by sithsaber408On that: http://www.slate.com/id/2199363/
Biden is saying how he thinks he's the underdog now. (probably to set his own expectations lower, I assume)
I expect Obama to win the debates, but many may think he didn't because they don't like complicated nuanced answers which is what he gives. Obama will make better arguments than McCain, but McCain will simplify his point better so more people will 'get it' even if his argument isn't as sound.
Biden, on the other hand, will devastate Palin. Biden is one of the best debaters in politics. He can make complicated arguments simply and make a point very bluntly, and he simply is more knowledgeable than Palin on most issues. Especially foreign affairs. Once questions start coming about Iraq she really has no hope. Just a month ago she said she hasn't been following Iraq, where as it's Biden's specialty. Biden will simply make her look stupid when it comes to foreign affairs, and compared to him she is.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Saddleback?And that was before Palin.
I predict a draw at the worst, or a slight victory for McCain in the debates.
Obama will make lots of good points about what he would do on this domestic issue or that foreign policy, then McCain will say "Yeah, but you've never done any of that shizzle. I have. And better than you." and that will be that.
Biden is saying how he thinks he's the underdog now. (probably to set his own expectations lower, I assume)
Palin didn't help McCain's RNC speech, it was both dull and dry, bored me to death and didn't inspire confidence in me at all. So I don't think she's going to have some livening affect on McCain during the debates. He's boring and dry; he'll probably come off that way in the debates.
While true to an extent, you fail to factor in that Obama very well could accomplish what he plans, lack of experience doesn't necessarily mean one will fail, besides, it won't just be him, he'll have a cabinet to rely upon, just like any other president. He also has the confidence when speaking to make people believe that he will do what he sets out to do, the man is a good speaker.
As BF pointed out, Biden can speak and his antics are attention grabbing. Palin will not fair well against him when it comes to answering direct questions that she can't hide behind one or more of her "executive experience", "mother of five" or "soccer mom" mantras.
Originally posted by Strangelove
For the last time, Saddleback is not indicative of anything except McCain can play well to a friendly crowd 🙄
No. It indicated that giving the same questions to both men, and giving them ample time to answer them and say whatever they wanted...McCain was direct, engaging, and emotional. Obama was complicated and aloof.
I didn't mention Saddleback as a response meant to show debating skills. (though McCain loves the town hall debates and Obama wimped out. Wonder why?)
Rather, it was a counter to Rob. He was dry and dull (if explaining that his POW experiences broke him and America saved him and made him a servant of his country is dry, I guess) during the pre-written speech, but was very engaging and direct at the other forum.
That was the point of bringing up Saddleback. You'd all dismissed McCain before and he (and the "above my paygrade" failure of Obama) surpised the lot of you at that forum...which had fair, equal questions despite the setting. It appeared to all viewers, not just those in the church but those in the media, at home, and on these boards that McCain was better than Obama that day.
Originally posted by BackFirePersonally I believe that's all a red herrring. Palin's been to Iraq. She's been there with her soldiers from the Alaska national guard that are there. She's being coached by Lieberman. (you seen any of the video where she owns those three other guys sitting around a debate table? She does it all looking good and laughing at them)Biden, on the other hand, will devastate Palin. Biden is one of the best debaters in politics. He can make complicated arguments simply and make a point very bluntly, and he simply is more knowledgeable than Palin on most issues. Especially foreign affairs. Once questions start coming about Iraq she really has no hope. Just a month ago she said she hasn't been following Iraq, where as it's Biden's specialty. Biden will simply make her look stupid when it comes to foreign affairs, and compared to him she is.
Biden for sure knows more on foreign policy, but I wager Palin will again surprise and impress those who've already counted her out.
Originally posted by RobtardWell, we will see.
Palin didn't help McCain's RNC speech, it was both dull and dry, bored me to death and didn't inspire confidence in me at all. So I don't think she's going to have some livening affect on McCain during the debates. He's boring and dry; he'll probably come off that way in the debates.While true to an extent, you fail to factor in that Obama very well could accomplish what he plans, lack of experience doesn't necessarily mean one will fail, besides, it won't just be him, he'll have a cabinet to rely upon, just like any other president. He also has the confidence when speaking to make people believe that he will do what he sets out to do, the man is a good speaker.
As BF pointed out, Biden can speak and his antics are attention grabbing. Palin will not fair well against him when it comes to answering direct questions that she can't hide behind one or more of her "executive experience", "mother of five" or "soccer mom" mantras.
Before the August 16th Saddleback forum, everybody would've assumed McCain was a dead duck. (was it only 3 weeks ago? My, how things "change".)
Since then he's proved quite resilient, drawing more viewers for his speech than Obama did, having a better showing at that forum, and whooping his tail in the polls today.
You all still seem to think O will walk away from these debates the winner and that Biden will embarress Palin.
Perhaps. But I don't think so.
A couple weeks, and we'll see if I was right.
Again. (remember, I claimed a 10 point bounce for McCain, and that was already seen in 1 poll released today.)
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Well, we will see.Before the August 16th Saddleback forum, everybody would've assumed McCain was a dead duck. (was it only 3 weeks ago? My, how things "change".)
Since then he's proved quite resilient, drawing more viewers for his speech than Obama did, having a better showing at that forum, and whooping his tail in the polls today.
You all still seem to think O will walk away from these debates the winner and that Biden will embarress Palin.
Perhaps. But I don't think so.
A couple weeks, and we'll see if I was right.
Again. (remember, I claimed a 10 point bounce for McCain, and that was already seen in 1 poll released today.)
Yeah, this is just speculation, so we will see.
Anyone who assumed McCain was dead before he picked his VP and the debates was foolish to begin with.
Yeah, Palin has had a positive affect, for the obvious reasons. IMO, it will fade away (has already for me), she's just another Conservative, just one with a very pretty mouth. Those swing voters (sort of like me) will soon recognize that and vote accordingly.
I do think Obama will come off better in the debates, he'll come off fresh and exciting to those not solidified in their vote. McCain will bore them, probably not convince them of his "mavericking" and inspire images of "four more years". I don't think Biden will embarrass Palin, I think Palin will embarrass Palin when she can't match Biden. Biden would be foolish to take a bully-approach with her.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Personally I believe that's all a red herrring. Palin's been to Iraq. She's been there with her soldiers from the Alaska national guard that are there. She's being coached by Lieberman. (you seen any of the video where she owns those three other guys sitting around a debate table? She does it all looking good and laughing at them)Biden for sure knows more on foreign policy, but I wager Palin will again surprise and impress those who've already counted her out. Well, we will see.
She's been to Kuwait. Once. And as said earlier, she's admitted to not knowing what's going on in Iraq not long ago.
And her beating some people in debates in Alaska means nothing, they weren't Joe Biden.
I think the only way Biden could walk away at a loss is if he comes off too tough and sexist people will say that he's sexist for not treating her better because she's a woman.
The lower expectations are for Palin, the more easily she'll pass the bar though.
I agree with the Slate article though. It would folly for Biden to come across as blustering, verbose and/or heavy handed. If Biden can show just how much more knowledgeable he is than her on both domestic and foreign affairs, without coming across as a windbag, then he should easily win.
I didn't watch the Democratic Primary debates he participated in though where he was up against a woman (Clinton) and people he had far more knowledge and experience than (Clinton and Obama), so can someone who did tell me whether he can?
Sithsaber,
McCain's biggest obstacle in the debates is going to be his ever changing stances.
(Youtube video 2:50)
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The lower expectations are for Palin, the more easily she'll pass the bar though.
You're right, but the Right is touting her around like the best thing since the invention of peanut butter, so her expectations are rising.
People are going to expect to see a confident and knowledgeable leader who has "executive experience" seeping from every pore; who's willing to stand up to government bureaucracy. I'm not convinced she'll be able to pull it out of her (sexy) ass though.
I'm not convinced she can pull it off; but then I'm not prepared to write her off either.
If you gave me a month to study foreign and domestic policy, I doubt I would gain the insight that 30 years in the Senate and chairing the Foreign Relations Committee would give. But I may be able to gain the knowledge so as not to make a complete fool of myself. And that everyone knows Joe Biden is hugely formidable re: foreign policy; the latter is all she needs to do really.
Also, a slate of new State polls have been released.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html
I'm not seeing any significant moves here really.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm not convinced she can pull it off; but then I'm not prepared to write her off either.If you gave me a month to study foreign and domestic policy, I doubt I would gain the insight that 30 years in the Senate and chairing the Foreign Relations Committee would give. But I may be able to gain the knowledge so as not to make a complete fool of myself. And that everyone knows Joe Biden is hugely formidable re: foreign policy; the latter is all she needs to do really.
Also, a slate of new State polls have been released.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html
I'm not seeing any significant moves here really.
State polls are far less fickle than national polls. The biggest thing with that bunch is Ohio, now looks like McCain has a larger lead there. Also Florida still being tied is pretty surprising. Thought McCain would be leading there more by now.
Funny bit about Palin from Doug Stanhope -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8hlj_UFi-g