Exar Kun vs Count Dooku

Originally posted by chilled monkey
[B]Fighting Kun on two separate occasions armed only with his walking stick. Making said wooden stick lightsabre-resistant (not completely immune, but able to withstand repeated strikes that were both powerful and precise) purely through his command of the Force.

Maybe not 'godly,' but still pretty darned impressive.

Wasn't Vodo capable of using the force from the other side of the galaxy, or did he just sense stuff. Even the latter is quite good considering that he could sense Kun even on Korriban, or whatever.

You mean he could do what Jedi are supposed to do? He was able to...contact the Padawan he had a bond with?
This puts him on the level of young Mara Jade, even.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Died with him? According to...what, exactly?

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook:

"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun...(keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know of the Sith powers)." (Chapter Four: Echoes of the Sith, pg. 50)

It draws a clear distinction that what he had acquired from Sadow was exclusive to Nadd and himself.

Kun had absolutely nothing he didn't learn from earlier eras

Something I never denied and continuously imply by stating "Sadow's teachings", etc.

and according to Jedi vs. Sith, they've lasted to Palpatine's time and era.

Which is written under a section entitled "Sith Alchemy". It stands to reason that it was referring to Naga Sadow's alchemical knowledge, which is supported by Sidious' own appendum. How does this account for the private notes he left on Yavin IV (notice that it's never stated where he secured this holocron)? It doesn't.

One could also point out that it's well known that Kun and Nadd learned from Sadow, but he never specifically states that what the secrets they had learned and the ones contained in the holocron were the same. Sidious merely asserts that he'll keep what he gathered secret. Therefore, there would be no contradictions between the JA Sourcebook and JvS. Reading comprehension is your friend, try again.

It's a testament to his learning abilities, yes. Problem? Nothing Kun faced with those beams was capable of defending itself against them.

Neither are the Death Star's superlasers. Following your line of thought, its superlasers won't work against anything that can defend itself simply because they've never shown to. The amulet beams would clearly disintegrate anything they came into contact with, as evident by the fact they tear through a monstrous Sith Wyrm and blast solid rock apart, if the beams came into contact with a material being, we're shown what would happen:

It doesn't matter whether or not they can be blocked. To stress the point so even you can understand it, I'll use a character you like: Sidious' lightning is shown being able to reduce three prophets into dust, but it can still be dispersed or deflected. Does this mean that it will be completely ineffective in a fight if the attack connects? By your doltish reasoning, yes.

Not with force shields, energy manipulation, snapping his arm back with the force, hurling him back with a force wave, not a thing.

In the context of this fight, do you honestly believe Dooku wouldn't have to expend a ridiculous amount of energy just to block the first beam (that's assuming it doesn't overpower him anyways)? We know that the power behind the amulet beams are enough to blast through a Sith Wyrm and still travel with the same apparent force that it began with. We also know that to shield yourself from an attack, you'd be draining yourself. Given the sheer intensity of the beams, I'd surmise that Dooku would be exhausting a rather considerable portion of his power. It'd be useless anyways because another blast that's twice as potent would follow behind.

Yes, they 'double in strength.' But I don't recall them getting anywhere near as twice as big as a body, let alone to the level they've been espoused to have

As the scan posted above depicts, the amulet beams eclipse Kun's body by the end of the page. Considering as they're shown to expand in diameter as they travel, it's safe to say that they would've only gotten larger.

And? It matters how long they took to attain that how?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe because...

All it is is a testament to that Kun is far inexperienced as a combatant to anywhere close of the level Dooku is.

...it's testament to the fact that Dooku nor any individual in the Star Wars mythos (aside from Darth Bane) possess the same learning potential as Kun. And as we've seen clearly demonstrated by Bane and Anakin - a faster learning rate generally correlates to power.

Being renowned warriors in more than a few conflicts,

There are dozens of Jedi who are described in the same manner, does this make them among the greatest swordsman too? One of those dozens being Odan Urr, the guy you dubbed to "the most useless Jedi ever" below.

putting Quinlan Vos on his rear end in moments? That seems a bit more.

Flooring Quinlan Vos somehow grants one access to the greatest swordsman club? Good to know. Not to mention, only of the two aforementioned accomplished this feat.

Nonsense.

To assume otherwise is nonsense.

The Galactic Senate by ROTS times consists of about...400 0 chairs.

The Galactic Republic had over one million member systems as of the PT era and over fifty million colonies. As Ulic Qel-Droma had committed the most grievous of crimes (against civilization) against the Republic, the trial should've been attended by all representatives considering the time of war. Then you could also factor in their guards, etc. It's safe to say there was hundreds of thousands as compared to "4,000", which is just asinine.

From an outside view, we're shown exactly how large the Senate Hall actually was:

The structure is vast. Much larger than anything man-made on Earth. Then, we're given an encompassing perspective on how large the inside is:

Notice that the place is congested to the the very top, every single section being filled. From a similar same view, this is what the biggest football stadium in America looks like:

That is the Michigan Stadium, which holds a capacity of a hundred thousand. You're assuming that a clearly much larger structure only housed 4,000 senators when from the comics it's apparent that there is hundreds of thousands of beings present (at the very least).

Unless something dramatic changed and the onus would be upon you to prove it did,

I'd say 4,000 years is a rather dramatic change, Lightsnake. Especially considering the Senate Hall and the Senate Rotunda are not the same structure.

then there's nothing CLOSE to that there.

But there is. Just because you refuse to admit to it, doesn't make it untrue.

Irrelevant. It's a Sith Spell. Meaning once you cast it, it's done.

Since when did you become an authority on Sith spells, Lightsnake? Did you suddenly train under Sadow during my absence?

There's nothing indicating that he has to keep concentrating for it.

Besides the fact that he would have to dictate where the senators eyes follow? Indeed, given that Kun is constantly on the move (from the podium to the ground, fighting Vodo, etc.), it would seem logical that he had to maintain a level of concentration to control what they were watching. Further supported by the fact the spell only wore off when he left.

And considering Odan-Urr's possibly the most useless Jedi ever

Originally posted by Advent
I'll tell that to the soldiers that were saved by Odan's meditation.

Originally posted by Advent
Right:

So as it would seem Odan wasn't useless, and Memit Nadill even gives his praise, and it's obvious that his Battle Meditation was needed to win the battle. So, for you to downplay him is ridiculous. Good thing, though, that I have the actual source material and logic to prove that assertion wrong.

Perhaps, Odan as a young Jedi Knight may have been useless (he wasn't), but to assume Odan Urr after a thousand year is? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Anakin in TPM useless? Didn't he grow more powerful? Why yes, he did. Odan stripped Ancient Sith of the Force after the events of his younger days, he fully mastered his Battle meditation, and spent a great deal of time reading upon the Force. He also was good enough to teach Nomi both of those techniques. To say that Odan is shown as "useless" is ridiculous, because you're talking about Odan Urr...oh say, 985 years ago?

By this logic, Mace Windu must suck because he was beaten by Dooku. But then you take into account, he plainly improved, and there you go. Odan Urr obviously improved, and had more than ample time to do such. A young, inexperienced Jedi Knight < A wise, and proficient Jedi Master.

I encourage you to feel free to stop posting the same, age-old arguments that have been stomped time and time again.

and wasn't anything resembling 'proficient' in anything but battle meditation

"I myself became adept at such powers [severing one's Force connection]" - Odan's own dialogue seems to indicate otherwise. A preemptive point: he notes himself that he is "more of a scholar than a fighter", so there's absolutely no reason to assume he was being arrogant in proclaiming such.

He also taught the technique to Nomi and Vodo, if you recall. Which pretty much cements the fact that he had fully mastered it. Even your own personal bible (JvS) states:

"A powerful Jedi can block a Force-user's access to the Force, preventing him or her from using Force skills or Force feats."

I guess Odan is incompetent, Lightsnake, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

in fact, Oppo Rancisis kicks his ass with that- and that most of the powerful Sith were dead by the time any combat occurred between Odan and a member of the race

Which is largely irrelevant, even if it is true. The fact that he had became "adept" in an ability that only powerful Jedi can perform and had past successes with it is all that matters.

and the only time that move is performed with any sort of success in TOTJ is by a non resisting Ulic.

That was shown, yes. In that instance, Nomi remarks that she didn't expect the technique to be "so strong...so complete", yet Kun outright resists the effects of the "most devastating attack" the light side has to offer executed by a Jedi who had millenia to perfect the technique.

So, let's not go around proclaiming that resisting a move like that is a mark above anything short of 'competence.'

See above, it's the most powerful ability a light sider can possess. Let's not go around proclaiming that resisting a move like that is a mark below anything short of "godlike".

The totally worthless guy with no proper showings of powers whatsoever.

See above, arguing from ignorance only makes you look foolish.

Palpatine could have owned T'ra Saa with a blink and she's far older than a thousand. Don't throw around age like it means anything there.

Firstly, I was using his age as a placeholder for his name - initially, I meant nothing by it. Secondly, given his age allowed him to study the Force for a millenia, it certainly does.

This would mean something if he wasn't there to:
A. kill her, ergo merely knocking her out cold seems counterproductive

His intent changed when she called him a "pretender" and attacked him with Sith magic. In response, Kun gives her a dose of her own medicine to prove that he "has learned everything!", as he states. Essentially he wanted to prove that anything she could do, he could do better.

Also, you seem to be forgetting he was also there to kill Ulic ("my enemies"😉, who would've been a much more important factor as she didn't present a threat whatsoever at that point.

B. Aleema was anything resembling 'impressive' by big boy standards

How does that follow from "he wasn't there to"?

Anyways, it's made clear that she is adept at performing Sith magic - she creates mass illusions on a grand scale and the omniscient narrator states she was "proficient" in such. Kun casually shrugs off her assault and counters with his own that topples her usage of the power by knocking her unconscious, which is striking in itself.

"Big boy standards"? Puh-leaze.

And Dooku isn't one of those great duelists?

...read what I was responding to. It doesn't matter if he is or not.

Yes, he stalemated Ulic. Dooku has been able to take on Mace in the past. In effect, Dooku's got just as much going for him as Kun

Clearly since you seem to lack the ability to comprehend, Subjekt said that he failed to see what was so "impressive" about Kun's resume. I was listing his feats, which had nothing to do with Count Dooku.

Let's refer to this a bit more honestly:

Coming from you and your past of dubiousness, that's a laugh.

he does this with the help of two sided assault from Kyp,

Unless you were willing to argue that a greenhorn Kyp Durron and the spirit of Exar Kun are < Kun in the flesh, then this loses its importance in the discussion.

against a Luke who was holding back,

Relevance? None? Thought so. Even if he were holding back (which I question to begin with), it doesn't change the fact he was desperately searching for a defense, all of which failed completely. Or that he couldn't summon enough power to resist it.

caught unprepared

Relevance? None? Thought so. He had enough time to attempt every defense he had ever learned and activated his lightsaber when he confronted Kyp. How "unprepared" could he have been?

and had never been taught to defend himself against Sith techniques from any of the above for pretty obvious reasons

Unsurprisingly, you fail to grasp the point: he rendered virtually every defense that post-DE Luke knew utterly useless. This would be the same Luke Skywalker, who is - as I'm sure you'd be the first to agree - the most powerful Jedi at that point. That he had neither the knowledge or power to defend against the attack, it speaks volumes for Kun's powers and his Sith abilities.

and let's not recall Kun was much stronger there due to the detail of having recently been glutting on Gantoris's life force

"Much stronger"? That's a blatant lie:

Originally posted by Advent
"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students."

and all the dark energy of Yavin 4 that he'd left there.

Originally posted by Advent
How about you actually provide viable evidence before typing, as you'll find it makes your response rather worthless.

1.) Prove that Kun 'tapped into' these supposed sources of energy he had after killing Gantoris. It's funny, since even the secondary, fallible account (I, Jedi) doesn't make any note that he did such, as far as I've checked.

The only thing that vaguely resembles your argument is dialogue between characters:

"I thought I heard someone - Bodo Baas, perhaps - say the temples here had all been raised as a focus for Exar Kun's power. Maybe this temple isn't the focus of it, but just linked to it. If the link was forged of Sith magic, Exar Kun might be able to block back-tracing. Another of the temples here, then, would be the centerpoint of his power."

And that doesn't support what you're saying either, because even after Kun trapped Luke at the actual centerpoint and put him in a comatose, he was "still was not ready to take on Luke directly", because he was not powerful enough. Which leads one to believe that the temples only preserved his strength enough to remain a spirit for thousands of years (much like the Ancient Sith on Korriban). Luke even wonders as to why Kun would still be lingering around, and not have vanished entirely, and that's the reason. Which leads me to #2.

2.) Prove that these sources even enhance his power anymore than they did to simply keep his spirit from diminishing.

3.) "With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear. Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p. 49)

If the temples made him more powerful than he was in the flesh, then why are the students that he needs [to draw [b]energy from] the only ingredient said to be used to revert him back to his physical form? The only "sources" that are said to increase his strength and power are that of actual Force sensitives, and their emotions. Golden Globe? No, not even mentioned in either account. Massassi Temple? Only used to sustain his spirit from becoming nonexistent. Yavin? Uh, prove up.[/B]

And here I thought we were taking the "honesty" approach.

And? Gantoris practically held the gun to his own head

You say "and?" as if this is something Force spirits that have been weakened over the span of 4,000 years actively do. *Hint*: they don't.

He performs basic Dark Side actions

While I'd agree that the ability to Force choke is basic, the ability to choke twelve victims at once as a spirit is not however. Stop trying to downplay Kun's feats.

is still bested by Streen? Righto.

I wonder how hard it would be to defeat someone when you have the knowledge on how exactly to do such.

This would be like saying because I can defeat the strongest boss on the hardest setting of the most difficult video game since I was given insights on how to do such, the boss is weak.

Let's see some proof of this. KOTOR's hyperbole nonwithstanding...

It was testimony from a Rodian, the same Rodian who's testimony you so trusted in this thread. However, I'm willing to drop this point because, as I said, the feats I listed were off the top of my head. I didn't realize that he was the source of the ground quavering comment.

Absolute nonsense. Jedi vs. Sith confirms he was following instructions left by the Jedi Exiles for that weapon.

Jedi Vs. Sith is an in-universe narrative, which makes it subject to fallibility. That fact notwithstanding, I've reviewed the source and it states that it the imaginary holocron was "possibly" left by the Exiles, not "confirmed". Quit twisting quotes around.

Which leaves the question: who created this magical holocron then and where's there any evidence of its existence? Perhaps Tionne Solusar should put down the spices for awhile.

And thus style.

Leaving instructions on how to construct a weapon and leaving instructions on how to wield said weapon are two majorly different things. It is a huge unsupported assumption to say that it contained the knowledge of a corresponding lightsaber form.

Jedi vs. Sith kind of confirms you wrong again. Kun had notihn but knowledge he gained from Sadow on Yavin. Plenty of Sith had FAR more time to study Sadow's knowledge and master it.

The only Sith that we can confirm knowing Sadow's private notes are Kun, Nadd, and Sadow himself. The teachings died with Kun and it is stated that it's extremely unlikely any records survive elsewhere.

Let's see Vodo's godly feats now. Somehow...I don't think they exist.

Being able to defeat your master as an apprentice is rather impressive, especially when you consider put Kun on his ass by just by using "the skill of long experience". He was a revered Jedi Master and clearly powerful in the Force demonstrated by the fact that he could also sever one's connection to the Force and was able to imbue his walking stick to the point where it was "more powerful than a lightsaber".

Speaks more for KJA's writing ability

Care to point out the relevance in this statement to what I wrote? Or should I put out that there is none? Oops.

I might pose the same to you.

Then you'd only be making yourself look more harebrained than you already have.

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't see where we are supposed to be impressed by Exar Kun's feats against Ulic Qel Droma off of the assumption that he is one of the best ever.

It's a rather sound assumption, Gideon. He was already describes as a "master swordsman" when he was in his twenties, the only other person who I know that was described as such being Anakin "The Greatest Lightsaber Duelist of the PT" Skywalker (and of course, Exar Kun).

He defends himself against an enraged Jedi Master, tapping into her emotions a la TPM Kenobi - all while being cut off from the Force for a decade. You'd also have to factor in that he was out of practice with a lightsaber for years as well, and as we see in ANH, this effects one's skills considerable (Ben Kenobi's skill had deteriorated).

He was at a severe disadvantage given the fact Sylvar possessed the ability of precognition and the ability to enhance her physical attributes due to the Force (not to mention, the Cathar are known for strength). Based on that alone, it would stand to reason that Ulic in his prime must've been one of the most talented beings ever to pick up a blade. His feat is unmatched by anyone who doesn't have at least a connection to the Force. And General Grievous doesn't count.

The omniscient narrator of the RotS novelization and other sources have already stated that Dooku is one of the best there ever was.

Tell me, what does with what I responding to?

No such statement for Qel Droma.

Absence of a narrator doesn't make it untrue. It's a logical deduction, and a quite safe one to make.

In response to the learning rates Advent, I think Luke had one hell of an accelerated learning rate. He had virtually no real knowledge of the force or lightsaber combat during the movies, and he still managed to use both to his advantage. It may not be on the level of Kun or Bane, but that doesn't say much. Luke had nothing to work with until Palpatine was destroyed the first time. He became vastly more powerful during his brief training with the reborn Emperor.

Also, the biggest football stadium resides in Pasadena California.

One last thing. I don't know how accurate this may be but I thought the most powerful light side maneuver or manifestation is achieving oneness with the force, which was done by Jacen during the Vong war and by Luke, I forgot when.

No one denied that it was a "sound assumption", Advent. But as I explained to chilled monkey, statements made by the omniscient narrator of a specific source (and there are multiple sources that attest to Count Dooku's competence and legendary skill with a lightsaber) are unquestionable whereas "sound assumptions" are. In essence, what I mean to point out is that while I appreciate the point you made and agree with you that Ulic Qel Droma is the shit, that doesn't even begin to suggest that Droma or Kun are on par with the Count in lightsaber prowess. Nor does the fact that he tooled Vodo; with respect, LS is right. Vodo was certainly powerful for his time, but based on evidence, Dooku would plant his ass in the ground without an iota of effort.

EDIT: As far as learning rates are considered, Anakin Skywalker's "learning rate" seems slower than what we've seen from Darth Bane, Exar Kun, and Vader's Secret Apprentice, yet his potential exceeds all the above by an unimaginable degree. Yoda was described as "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" with eight centuries of experience and knowledge under his belt and was forced to flee in a contest with a Sith Lord whose knowledge and experience accumulating in a total of six decades. Power =/= learning rate.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
In response to the learning rates Advent, I think Luke had one hell of an accelerated learning rate. He had virtually no real knowledge of the force or lightsaber combat during the movies, and he still managed to use both to his advantage. It may not be on the level of Kun or Bane, but that doesn't say much. Luke had nothing to work with until Palpatine was destroyed the first time. He became vastly more powerful during his brief training with the reborn Emperor.

I definitely agree. I forgot about Luke even though he played a part in the discussion, lol. Although, this just further supports my point.

Also, the biggest football stadium resides in Pasadena California.

At the time, I just typed "biggest football stadium" in Google and the Michigan Stadium was the first result. Admittedly, I didn't read the article or the excerpt besides what was bolded.

How much larger is the one in CA, though?

One last thing. I don't know how accurate this may be but I thought the most powerful light side maneuver or manifestation is achieving oneness with the force, which was done by Jacen during the Vong war and by Luke, I forgot when.

But it's not an attack one could actively use, it is more of a state that is achieved under circumstance.

@ Gideon:

I realize as much, but if you'll notice anything written below "Kun doesn't have an impressive resume anyways" had absolutely nothing to do with this fight. The only reason I listed his feats were to show Subjekt otherwise, my intentions weren't to prove Kun's superiority over Dooku.

As far as learning rates are considered, Anakin Skywalker's "learning rate" seems slower than what we've seen from Darth Bane, Exar Kun, and Vader's Secret Apprentice, yet his potential exceeds all the above by an unimaginable degree.

He also had a considerably less knowledge base to work with and was a Jedi (who are less powerful, according to George Lucas). You'll notice that Kun isn't all-powerful prior to studying Sadow's notes either, but once he secured them, we all know what became of him.

Yoda was described as "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" with eight centuries of experience and knowledge under his belt and was forced to flee in a contest with a Sith Lord whose knowledge and experience accumulating in a total of six decades. Power =/= learning rate.

What's your point? Yoda also had a potential that was clearly reached. I don't see how this disproves my theory.

Originally posted by Advent
I realize as much, but if you'll notice anything written below "Kun doesn't have an impressive resume anyways" had absolutely nothing to do with this fight. The only reason I listed his feats were to show Subjekt otherwise, my intentions weren't to prove Kun's superiority over Dooku.

Oh, all right then. I was just making sure that that wasn't your rationale to suggest that Exar Kun > Count Dooku.

He also had a considerably less knowledge base to work with and was a Jedi (who are less powerful, according to George Lucas). You'll notice that Kun isn't all-powerful prior to studying Sadow's notes either, but once he secured them, we all know what became of him.

A considerably inferior knowledge base to work with in what? Are we talking Obi-Wan Kenobi versus Naga Sadow in terms of knowledge or Naga Sadow versus Master Yoda and the entire Jedi Order in terms of knowledge? Furthermore, George Lucas says that the dark side is more powerful than the light side, not necessarily Sith > Jedi (or am I mistaken?). After all, Yoda demonstrated solid superiority over Count Dooku, who was an incredibly powerful Sith Lord.

What's your point? Yoda also had a potential that was clearly reached. I don't see how this disproves my theory.

Isn't it stated or implied that Yoda had the second highest midichlorian count in recorded history in The Phantom Menace and thus the second highest potential in the history of the Jedi Order?

Originally posted by Advent

I definitely agree. I forgot about Luke even though he played a part in the discussion, lol. Although, this just further supports my point.

At the time, I just typed "biggest football stadium" in Google and the Michigan Stadium was the first result. Admittedly, I didn't read the article or the excerpt besides what was bolded.

How much larger is the one in CA, though?

The one in CA had about 105,000 for an event. Also, the Penn St stadium is bigger than Michigan.

But it's not an attack one could actively use, it is more of a state that is achieved under circumstance.

Originally posted by Advent

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook:

"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun...(keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know of the Sith powers)." (Chapter Four: Echoes of the Sith, pg. 50)

It draws a clear distinction that what he had acquired from Sadow was exclusive to Nadd and himself.

Something I never denied and continuously imply by stating "Sadow's teachings", etc.

Which is written under a section entitled "Sith Alchemy". It stands to reason that it was referring to Naga Sadow's alchemical knowledge, which is supported by Sidious' own appendum. How does this account for the private notes he left on Yavin IV (notice that it's never stated where he secured this holocron)? It doesn't.

One could also point out that it's well known that Kun and Nadd learned from Sadow, but he never specifically states that what the secrets they had learned and the ones contained in the holocron were the same. Sidious merely asserts that he'll keep what he gathered secret. Therefore, there would be no contradictions between the JA Sourcebook and JvS. Reading comprehension is your friend, try again.

Neither are the Death Star's superlasers. Following your line of thought, its superlasers won't work against anything that can defend itself simply because they've never shown to.

The amulet beams would clearly disintegrate anything they came into contact with, as evident by the fact they tear through a monstrous Sith Wyrm and blast solid rock apart,

if the beams came into contact with a material being, we're shown what would happen:

It doesn't matter whether or not they can be blocked. To stress the point so even you can understand it, I'll use a character you like: Sidious' lightning is shown being able to reduce three prophets into dust, but it can still be dispersed or deflected. Does this mean that it will be completely ineffective in a fight if the attack connects? By your doltish reasoning, yes.

In the context of this fight, do you honestly believe Dooku wouldn't have to expend a ridiculous amount of energy just to block the first beam (that's assuming it doesn't overpower him anyways)? We know that the power behind the amulet beams are enough to blast through a Sith Wyrm

and still travel with the same apparent force that it began with. We also know that to shield yourself from an attack, you'd be draining yourself.

Given the sheer intensity of the beams, I'd surmise that Dooku would be exhausting a rather considerable portion of his power. It'd be useless anyways because another blast that's twice as potent would follow behind.

As the scan posted above depicts, the amulet beams eclipse Kun's body by the end of the page. Considering as they're shown to expand in diameter as they travel, it's safe to say that they would've only gotten larger.

Oh, I don't know. Maybe because...

...it's testament to the fact that Dooku nor any individual in the Star Wars mythos (aside from Darth Bane) possess the same learning potential as Kun.
And as we've seen clearly demonstrated by Bane and Anakin - a faster learning rate generally correlates to power.

There are dozens of Jedi who are described in the same manner, does this make them among the greatest swordsman too? One of those dozens being Odan Urr, the guy you dubbed to "the most useless Jedi ever" below.

Flooring Quinlan Vos somehow grants one access to the greatest swordsman club?

Good to know. Not to mention, only of the two aforementioned accomplished this feat.

To assume otherwise is nonsense.

The Galactic Republic had over one million member systems as of the PT era and over fifty million colonies. As Ulic Qel-Droma had committed the most grievous of crimes (against civilization) against the Republic, the trial should've been attended by all representatives considering the time of war.

Then you could also factor in their guards, etc. It's safe to say there was hundreds of thousands as compared to "4,000", which is just asinine.

From an outside view, we're shown exactly how large the Senate Hall actually was:

The structure is vast. Much larger than anything man-made on Earth. Then, we're given an encompassing perspective on how large the inside is:

Notice that the place is congested to the the very top, every single section being filled. From a similar same view, this is what the biggest football stadium in America looks like:

That is the Michigan Stadium, which holds a capacity of a hundred thousand. You're assuming that a clearly much larger structure only housed 4,000 senators when from the comics it's apparent that there is hundreds of thousands of beings present (at the very least).

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, all right then. I was just making sure that that wasn't your rationale to suggest that Exar Kun > Count Dooku.

Did you think that I forgot you still browsed these forums? I'm not stupid enough to post something like that with you on patrol, lol. 😖hifty:

A considerably inferior knowledge base to work with in what? Are we talking Obi-Wan Kenobi versus Naga Sadow in terms of knowledge or Naga Sadow versus Master Yoda and the entire Jedi Order in terms of knowledge?

It's hard to state into words what I mean, but let me rephrase my point: Anakin's learning rate seems slower than Bane's and Kun's because he was never given any type of knowledge that would make him supremely powerful. As I pointed out, Kun was an extraordinary Jedi apprentice, but he was certainly not one of the most powerful Force users at that time. When he gains access to Sadow's virtual treasure vault, we see the leap in power is tremendous. Do you see what I'm trying to say?

If Anakin had gathered the same or similar knowledge, it stands to reason it would grant him the power his potential allowed. He was correct in saying that the Jedi hold him back, because they do. And despite that, he still managed to become one of the most powerful Jedi Knights in history in ten years.

Furthermore, George Lucas says that the dark side is more powerful than the light side, not necessarily Sith > Jedi (or am I mistaken?). After all, Yoda demonstrated solid superiority over Count Dooku, who was an incredibly powerful Sith Lord.

Indeed, you are correct. However, the ways of the dark side provide more power and Anakin was a practitioner of the light side. Kun, Bane, and Starkiller all utilized the ways of the dark side and as Nick Gillard points out, Anakin became more powerful when he submitted to the dark side - which was what I was alluding to.

Isn't it stated or implied that Yoda had the second highest midichlorian count in recorded history in The Phantom Menace and thus the second highest potential in the history of the Jedi Order?

As far as Obi-Wan implies, yes. But the question still remains: how does this disprove my theory? The fight between Yoda and Sidious doesn't prove contrary that I can see.

Do me a favor please by expanding on what you meant initially.

Since when did you become an authority on Sith spells, Lightsnake? Did you suddenly train under Sadow during my absence?

Besides the fact that he would have to dictate where the senators eyes follow?

Indeed, given that Kun is constantly on the move (from the podium to the ground, fighting Vodo, etc.), it would seem logical that he had to maintain a level of concentration to control what they were watching. Further supported by the fact the spell only wore off when he left.

I encourage you to feel free to stop posting the same, age-old arguments that have been stomped time and time again. [/B]

Originally posted by Advent

"I myself became adept at such powers [severing one's Force connection]" - Odan's own dialogue seems to indicate otherwise.

A preemptive point: he notes himself that he is "more of a scholar than a fighter", so there's absolutely no reason to assume he was being arrogant in proclaiming such.

He also taught the technique to Nomi and Vodo, if you recall. Which pretty much cements the fact that he had fully mastered it. Even your own personal bible (JvS) states:

"A powerful Jedi can block a Force-user's access to the Force, preventing him or her from using Force skills or Force feats."

I guess Odan is incompetent, Lightsnake, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Which is largely irrelevant, even if it is true. The fact that he had became "adept" in an ability that only powerful Jedi can perform and had past successes with it is all that matters.

That was shown, yes. In that instance, Nomi remarks that she didn't expect the technique to be "so strong...so complete", yet Kun outright resists the effects of the "most devastating attack" the light side has to offer executed by a Jedi who had millenia to perfect the technique.

See above, it's the most powerful ability a light sider can possess. Let's not go around proclaiming that resisting a move like that is a mark below anything short of "godlike".
And who exactly said it's the most powerful ability a light sider can possess? 'Most devastating' were Odan's words due to the effect on the opponent. Most would prefer death to life without the Force. We've seen sever Force used before by people as low on the scale as Vergere.

[Quote]
See above, arguing from ignorance only makes you look foolish.

Firstly, I was using his age as a placeholder for his name - initially, I meant nothing by it. Secondly, given his age allowed him to study the Force for a millenia, it certainly does.

His intent changed when she called him a "pretender" and attacked him with Sith magic. In response, Kun gives her a dose of her own medicine to prove that he "has learned everything!", as he states. Essentially he wanted to prove that anything she could do, he could do better.

Also, you seem to be forgetting he was also there to kill Ulic ("my enemies"😉, who would've been a much more important factor as she didn't present a threat whatsoever at that point.

How does that follow from "he wasn't there to"?

Anyways, it's made clear that she is adept at performing Sith magic - she creates mass illusions on a grand scale and the omniscient narrator states she was "proficient" in such. Kun casually shrugs off her assault and counters with his own that topples her usage of the power by knocking her unconscious, which is striking in itself.

"Big boy standards"? Puh-leaze.

...read what I was responding to. It doesn't matter if he is or not.

Clearly since you seem to lack the ability to comprehend, Subjekt said that he failed to see what was so "impressive" about Kun's resume. I was listing his feats, which had nothing to do with Count Dooku.

Coming from you and your past of dubiousness, that's a laugh.

Unless you were willing to argue that a greenhorn Kyp Durron and the spirit of Exar Kun are < Kun in the flesh, then this loses its importance in the discussion.

Relevance? None? Thought so.

Even if he were holding back (which I question to begin with),

it doesn't change the fact he was desperately searching for a defense, all of which failed completely. Or that he couldn't summon enough power to resist it.

Relevance? None? Thought so. He had enough time to attempt every defense he had ever learned and activated his lightsaber when he confronted Kyp. How "unprepared" could he have been?

[Quote
Unsurprisingly, you fail to grasp the point: he rendered virtually every defense that post-DE Luke knew utterly useless. This would be the same Luke Skywalker, who is - as I'm sure you'd be the first to agree - the most powerful Jedi at that point. That he had neither the knowledge or power to defend against the attack, it speaks volumes for Kun's powers and his Sith abilities.[/Quote]
It speaks for Kun's tactical abilities. Considering it's highly unlikely Palpatine or Yoda would ever have bothered to teach him about this technique. And if Palpatine were to, say, strike Yoda full on with intent to kill and kept it on, do you see Yoda being able to defend himself?
Or are you trying to say Kun is this far above Luke in the flesh?
Hell, according to Star Wars Galaxies, Kun wasn't even capable of defeating a group of Spacers by himself along with his cult.

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"Much stronger"? That's a blatant lie:
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Don't even go there. Yes, he was. Far more than what he's reduced to when Luke drove him off in his sleep. Yes, a 'reserve to last.' And it llets him subvert Kyp and double team Luke. Where exactly does it state it gives him only a little now?

And here I thought we were taking the "honesty" approach.

How about you actually provide viable evidence before typing, as you'll find it makes your response rather worthless.

1.) Prove that Kun 'tapped into' these supposed sources of energy he had after killing Gantoris. It's funny, since even the secondary, fallible account (I, Jedi) doesn't make any note that he did such, as far as I've checked.

The only thing that vaguely resembles your argument is dialogue between characters:

"I thought I heard someone - Bodo Baas, perhaps - say the temples here had all been raised as a focus for Exar Kun's power. Maybe this temple isn't the focus of it, but just linked to it. If the link was forged of Sith magic, Exar Kun might be able to block back-tracing. Another of the temples here, then, would be the centerpoint of his power."

And that doesn't support what you're saying either, because even after Kun trapped Luke at the actual centerpoint and put him in a comatose, he was "still was not ready to take on Luke directly", because he was not powerful enough. Which leads one to believe that the temples only preserved his strength enough to remain a spirit for thousands of years (much like the Ancient Sith on Korriban)

. Luke even wonders as to why Kun would still be lingering around, and not have vanished entirely, and that's the reason. Which leads me to #2.

2.) Prove that these sources even enhance his power anymore than they did to simply keep his spirit from diminishing.

3.) "With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear. Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p. 49)

If the temples made him more powerful than he was in the flesh, then why are the students that he needs [to draw energy from] the only ingredient said to be used to revert him back to his physical form?

The only "sources" that are said to increase his strength and power are that of actual Force sensitives, and their emotions. Golden Globe? No, not even mentioned in either account. Massassi Temple? Only used to sustain his spirit from becoming nonexistent. Yavin? Uh, prove up.

You say "and?" as if this is something Force spirits that have been weakened over the span of 4,000 years actively do. *Hint*: they don't.

While I'd agree that the ability to Force choke is basic, the ability to choke twelve victims at once as a spirit is not however. Stop trying to downplay Kun's feats.

I wonder how hard it would be to defeat someone when you have the knowledge on how exactly to do such.

It was testimony from a Rodian, the same Rodian who's testimony you so trusted in this thread. However, I'm willing to drop this point because, as I said, the feats I listed were off the top of my head. I didn't realize that he was the source of the ground quavering comment. [/B]

Originally posted by Advent
Jedi Vs. Sith is an in-universe narrative, which makes it subject to fallibility. That fact notwithstanding, I've reviewed the source and it states that it the imaginary holocron was "possibly" left by the Exiles, not "confirmed". Quit twisting quotes around.

Then you'd only be making yourself look more harebrained than you already have.