Darth Revan & Anakin as a dark user vs Mace & Count Dooku

Originally posted by Man of Christ
all that going from a level 8 to a level nine swordsman stuff by gilliard is blown out of proportion with statements like "the dark side makes you stronger" no it doesnt

GL has said that the DS is inherently stronger, at least in the short run. Because GL is still the highest authority we have, we are forced to accept this statement. The lv. 8 to lv. 9 swordsman stuff is helpful because it is a cannon comparison of the best swordsmen of the PT. Even if you ignore GL and Gillard, we can see that the DS makes a Jedi at least momentarily stronger, as shown by Obi Wan flooring Maul, Anakin tooling Dooku on the Invisible Hand, and Luke bashing Darth Vader to the ground. In all of these cases, the DS gave the Jedi a significant, if short lived, boost.

Originally posted by Man of Christ
anakin in his mustafar state wasnt any stronger than his "invisible hand state"
dark anakin didnt do anything that light anakin wasnt already capable of
he just let go of restraint which allowed him to do anything he deemed neccisary to win without the jedi code restricting how he behaved in a duel.

Anakin at Mustafar had made a conscious decision to use the dark side, tapping into all of his strongest emotions. On the Invisible Hand he merely brushed the surface. He removed his restraint, but he didn't actively use the dark side. Light Anakin was getting manhandled by Dooku (in the novel) until Sidious told him to ignore the Jedi Code, brushing up against the dark. After that (according to the novel) the rest was 'details'. Dooku had no chance after Anakin used the DS

Originally posted by Man of Christ
someone said that obi wan won because he knew anakin inside and out. that is false. obi wan won because he capitalized on anakin's mistake which is what soresu is designed for. it had nothing to do with how well he knew anakin. ventress and dooku didnt know anakin but they managed to defeat him at times.

Obi Wan might have won because of his style, but the duel on Mustafar lasted as long as it did because of his familiarity with Anakin. In the movie, they are shown using the same move in succession (Obi kicks Ani, Ani kick Obi etc.) Ventress and Dooku have nothing to do with it. One doesn't need to know their opponent's style with the intimacy Obi Wan did, but Obi Wan and Anakin did know each other, leading to a situation in which they would win in spite of their knowledge, not because of it. Their familiarity caused a stalemate, until Obi broke the stalemate by getting the high ground. When you think about it, that was because he knew Anakin, too. He knew that Ani was brash and headstrong, and rarely stopped to think about tactics. Obi Wan won because of his friendship with anakin. Dooku was simply superior at the time of his victory (AotC). Under no circumstances could AotC Anakin beat Dooku. RotS Anakin DID beat Dooku.

(as for ventress- i'm not really sure who that is- i've read books containing her, but not anything with a substantial duel. The Cestius Deception springs to mind -as a book with no duel- but more info on her would help.)

Originally posted by Man of Christ
now to the fight

we have two scenarios

Scenario A (vader fights dooku and revan fights mace)

Outcome: after a rigorous fight mace uses vaapad and shatter point to wear down revan then cut him down. vader with an unclear head charges at dooku like he did obi wan in Rots only to be met with an incapacitating force lightening to the face, dooku cuts him down.

the second team has won

Originally posted by Man of Christ
scenario B: (vader versus mace and revan versus count dooku)

Outcome: with an unfocused mind anakin is easy pickins for the seasoned shatterpoint superconducting loop mace. revan might give dooku a good fight but dooku as a fine swordsman might edge him out, but mace is finished with vader so he goes to help dooku kill revan.

Team two wins again.

Could happen, but I don't see Mace leaving Dooku to fend off Revan by himself.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Obi wan used Soreseu, the DEFENSIVE form. He had a lifetime of battling alongside Anakin to learn Anakin's style. Using the dark side increased Anakin from a lv. 8 swordsman to lv. 9. The dark side makes you stronger. When he just dipped into it, he tooled Dooku.
Now, with the Dark Side under control (consciously being used) he is even stronger. He will totally clown Dooku.

I think that you are saying that since Malak knew force drain, Revan must have known it also. This has to be an assumption, and when you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. Darth Revan never knew the 'Full power of the star Forge' (verbatim from the game- I'm playing now) Malak could have learned the power 'Force Drain' during the time that he was the Lord of the Sith, which would have been after (or instead of) Darth Revan's rule. Revan never would have had the chance at the end of KotOR to learn Force Drain.

Kreia could have learned it during her time on the triumvirate, or while following the Exile on the Harbinger. Nihilius was a hole in the force, and rather than using the technique as a conscious effort, it was a compulsion. His power was a consequence of the deaths at Malachor V, not a focused and intentional use of the force.

Not only does it not point to him knowing the technique, there is no evidence of Revan EVER learning the power. Without the support from Cannon sources, these arguments would degenerate to subjective brown-nosing of our favorite characters. Learn grammar, find some sources, and come back after reading a few books.

p.s. I have $60 stashed away for KotOR 3, and the second it comes out, my family won't hear from me for about two weeks, [b]AND IT IS GOING TO BE RELEASED [/B]

Man of Christ definitely answered your speculative response concerning Obi Wan and Anakin. Anakin not Vader has never shown himself to be stable as a dark user so stop speculating that he could be. How does going to the dark side make him go up a level in sword skill explain that?

Since you and Tanqible require exact wording. Give me the resource to support your response concerning Obi Wan and Anakin.

I already stated that Malak was never describe or Keria as knowing a force technique that was unknown to Darth Revan.

I will explain to you as I did to Tanqible on another thread or this one, your, I don’t know and need exact wording is not going make me drop the argument. Read the thread with Star Forge empowered Revan vs Exar Kun. There Elite use quotes and facts against my arguments to show why Revan would not know certain things that I could not argue against even if I did not agree.

If you cannot do that then stop posting against my responses. I am not going to respond anymore to the, I need paper response.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Man of Christ definitely answered your speculative response concerning Obi Wan and Anakin. Anakin not Vader has never shown himself to be stable as a dark user so stop speculating that he could be. How does going to the dark side make him go up a level in sword skill explain that?

It's been a while since I watched the movie, I'll scan through the special features and post it later. It's in an interview where Nick Gillard says that Sidious, Yoda and Dooku are like lv. 9 swordsmen and Obi Wan/ Anakin are like lv. 8. It'll be up later.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Since you and Tanqible require exact wording. Give me the resource to support your response concerning Obi Wan and Anakin.

Again, I'll post it later, I think the important point is the distinction between Invisible hand Anakin and Mustafar Anakin (Darth Vader).

Originally posted by Kotor3
I already stated that Malak was never describe or Keria as knowing a force technique that was unknown to Darth Revan.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I will explain to you as I did to Tanqible on another thread or this one, your, I don’t know and need exact wording is not going make me drop the argument. Read the thread with Star Forge empowered Revan vs Exar Kun. There Elite use quotes and facts against my arguments to show why Revan would not know certain things that I could not argue against even if I did not agree.

This can be taken two ways. Either you are saying that you will continue to argue in the face of facts opposite of your opinion, or you are saying that there are no facts. Either way, that doesn't sound like an argument I want to participate in. I certainly hope that I'm wrong, but Fundie 'logic' scares me away.

Originally posted by Kotor3
If you cannot do that then stop posting against my responses. I am not going to respond anymore to the, I need paper response.

Wait are you guys looking for the quote that says how familiar the Anakin and obiwan were with each other?

Nope, and I just found it. In the Ep. 3 special features disk, during the featurette, It's all for Real, the stunts of Ep. 3, Nick Gillard makes his now famous lv 8 lv 9 quote- here it is, transcribed verbatim:

Hayden in this film {referring to the Mustafar Duel} was moved up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi. The difference between level eight and level nine really is the dark side. You have to go through each level in order to attain the next level, and if you do it too quick you're gonna get in trouble.

This suggests that Obi Wan is no longer on the same level as Anakin, as he had embraced the dark side. As such, there must have been some equalizing factor that allowed him to win... enter their familiarity with each others' fighting style, testified to in the RotS novelization, which I do not own. It does say that they were as close as brothers though, which implies a very strong relationship.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Nope, and I just found it. In the Ep. 3 special features disk, during the featurette, It's all for Real, the stunts of Ep. 3, Nick Gillard makes his now famous lv 8 lv 9 quote- here it is, transcribed verbatim:

This suggests that Obi Wan is no longer on the same level as Anakin, as he had embraced the dark side. As such, there must have been some equalizing factor that allowed him to win... enter their familiarity with each others' fighting style, testified to in the RotS novelization, which I do not own. It does say that they were as close as brothers though, which implies a very strong relationship.

Leveling up means improvement in skill or power? If power then the statement makes sense. If skill then the statement makes no sense at all.

Anakin was not level headed as a dark user. Anakin defeated Dooku as a light user. Obi Wan yes knew Anakin as a fighter and likewise with Anakin’s knowledge of Obi Wan. So it really wasn’t so advantageous for Obi Wan as you are making it.

It came down to Obi Wan using his environment and being the level headed one during the fight. The same thing Maul did in his fight with Obi Wan and his master. He used the environment to try to separate the two to make it his advantage. A technique many fighters do nothing special.

I missed spelled a name so we are even. You in other thread referred to Revan an male or female.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Leveling up means improvement in skill or power? If power then the statement makes sense. If skill then the statement makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Anakin was not level headed as a dark user. Anakin defeated Dooku as a light user. Obi Wan yes knew Anakin as a fighter and likewise with Anakin’s knowledge of Obi Wan. So it really wasn’t so advantageous for Obi Wan as you are making it.

They did know each other, and that's why the duel lasted so long. Without their connection, I would be willing to bet (don't call me on it- there is absolutely NO proof- but that hasn't stopped you) that Obi Wan wouldn't have beaten Anakin. His knowledge of Ani's fighting style is enough to allow him to hold his own, but not defeat him.

Originally posted by Kotor3
It came down to Obi Wan using his environment and being the level headed one during the fight. The same thing Maul did in his fight with Obi Wan and his master. He used the environment to try to separate the two to make it his advantage. A technique many fighters do nothing special.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I missed spelled a name so we are even. You in other thread referred to Revan an male or female.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Power and skill are connected in Star Wars. The Force is used to hasten attacks and blocks, and even lends some precognition. As Anakin grew in the force, he became a better duelist. Gillard said that Anakin's combat style was 'amped up' to the next level.

Anakin dipped into the dark side of the force to defeat Dooku. Later, he embraced the dark side and became Darth Vader for his fight with Obi Wan.

They did know each other, and that's why the duel lasted so long. Without their connection, I would be willing to bet (don't call me on it- there is absolutely NO proof- but that hasn't stopped you) that Obi Wan wouldn't have beaten Anakin. His knowledge of Ani's fighting style is enough to allow him to hold his own, but not defeat him.

Obi Wan could not have beaten Anakin without his tactical superiority. It is the same situation as Yoda vs. Sidious. I have read that in a flat out fight in the middle of the plains on Naboo ppl think that Yoda would win. We know that Sidious took the tactical advantage, and that made him the better fighter. Put simply, Obi Wan would not have defeated Anakin if not for their relationship, and his tactical maneuvering. Anakin was the better swordsman, but Obi was the better duelist.

I grant you that. I have fixed my mistake and will not repeat it. See that you do the same.

So we do agree that Obi Wan was the better duelist at the time.

Yes Anakin tap into the dark side I guess as expressed in the novel in his fight with Dooku. You don't get the same picture from the movie. Either way Anakin's state of mind was controlled and level headed. Had to mention again sense you seem to keep forgetting that factor.

Question though, how was the fight between Dooku and Anakin long? It was quite short and disappointing to me. I believe the whole fight scene from start to finish including scenes with Obi Wan lasted about 5 minutes altogether in the movies.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Anakin was not level headed as a dark user. Anakin defeated Dooku as a light user. Obi Wan yes knew Anakin as a fighter and likewise with Anakin’s knowledge of Obi Wan. So it really wasn’t so advantageous for Obi Wan as you are making it.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes Anakin tap into the dark side I guess as expressed in the novel in his fight with Dooku. You don't get the same picture from the movie. Either way Anakin's state of mind was controlled and level headed. Had to mention again sense you seem to keep forgetting that factor.

Originally posted by Kotor3
So we do agree that Obi Wan was the better duelist at the time.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Question though, how was the fight between Dooku and Anakin long? It was quite short and disappointing to me. I believe the whole fight scene from start to finish including scenes with Obi Wan lasted about 5 minutes altogether in the movies.

Originally posted by Jbill311
?

I never disagreed, the only point of contention was the amount of aid he received from knowing Anakin. Anakin is unquestionably the better swordsman though.

The fight isn't very long, but I never said it was. The novelization is a lot better, i think, than the movie in this instance.

My mistake, you never did say that. I did not read correctly.

As for the question mark the only way I can explain again is to say that Anakin was already arrogant. Turning to the dark side took his arrogance to a new level. Thus he became over confident and not a smart fighter.

You can use Foreman vs Ali fight as an example.

The question mark refers to the blatant contradiction between the two posts. In one:

Originally posted by Kotor3
Anakin was not level headed as a dark user. Anakin defeated Dooku as a light user. Obi Wan yes knew Anakin as a fighter and likewise with Anakin’s knowledge of Obi Wan. So it really wasn’t so advantageous for Obi Wan as you are making it.

In the next, you claim:

Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes Anakin tap into the dark side I guess as expressed in the novel in his fight with Dooku. You don't get the same picture from the movie. Either way Anakin's state of mind was controlled and level headed. Had to mention again sense you seem to keep forgetting that factor.

Originally posted by Jbill311
The question mark refers to the blatant contradiction between the two posts. In one:

You claim that Anakin 'was not level headed'.

In the next, you claim:

'Anakin's state of mind was controlled and level headed.' If you don't see the contradiction then there is no talking to you. You completely changed positions.

If you were actually reading my post and following my line of thought it would be clear to you that I am not contradicting myself. Obviously you are not.

We are taking about one fight in which the light user as Obi Wan did against Maul tap into the dark side but was level headed and had controlled as shown in the fight scene between Anakin and Dooku.

*The movie gave no indication that Anakin had tap into the dark side. I am excepting your statement since you want to use the novel. Either way it does not change that Anakin was focus during that fight (between him and Dooku), but he only tap into the dark side.

Big difference between tapping in and giving yourself over to the dark side. Do you understand?

Anakin was never focus when he gave himself over to the dark side. Never!!! His attitude and bad attributes were amplified and change the type of fighter he was. Also Anakin was never trained in the dark side to so as to focus his dark energies. His emotions and everything us were running wild and uncontrolled.

This was the biggest advantage for Obi Wan!

Obi Wan new Anakin and Anakin new him just as well, so the two cancel each other. What other factors come into play. Environments and mental state, which is what made Obi Wan the better duelist. This is really not that hard to understand.

Originally posted by Kotor3
If you were actually reading my post and following my line of thought it would be clear to you that I am not contradicting myself. Obviously you are not.

Originally posted by Kotor3
We are taking about one fight in which the light user as Obi Wan did against Maul tap into the dark side but was level headed and had controlled as shown in the fight scene between Anakin and Dooku.

Originally posted by Kotor3
*The movie gave no indication that Anakin had tap into the dark side. I am excepting your statement since you want to use the novel. Either way it does not change that Anakin was focus during that fight (between him and Dooku), but he only tap into the dark side.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Big difference between tapping in and giving yourself over to the dark side. Do you understand?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Anakin was never focus{ED} [for the love of god, it is the freaking past tense] when he gave himself over to the dark side. Never!!! His attitude and bad attributes were amplified and change the type of fighter he was. Also Anakin was never trained in the dark side to so as to focus his dark energies. His emotions and everything us were running wild and uncontrolled.

This was the biggest advantage for Obi Wan!

Originally posted by Kotor3
Obi Wan new Anakin and Anakin new him just as well, so the two cancel each other. What other factors come into play. Environments and mental state, which is what made Obi Wan the better duelist. This is really not that hard to understand.

Yes Kenobi's tactics make him the better duelist, but Anakin is simply the better fighter. Kenobi's knowledge of Anakin's style prolonged the conflict for superior tactics to come into play. Mental state and environment helped, but this seems like a cop out- If Anakin had known this, or felt differently about this, etc. then he would have won. I think that this is the Any given Sunday 'clause' and it doesn't seem appropriate.

Anakin was in complete control of the duel until Obi Wan baited him into a trap. This does not show a shortcoming of Anakin's mental state, it shows that Kenobi is the superior tactician.

Originally posted by Jbill311
Both of your statements were regarding ANAKIN as he used the dark side. You said that he was level headed as a Dark Sider, and that he was not. Your statements and positions are not consistent.

I haven't been talking about Maul for quite some time. Obi Wan as a lightsider was level headed but we aren't talking about Obi Wan either. Anakin is the issue here.

1. focused. tapped. PLEASE conjugate your verbs.
2. As best as I can understand, your current position is that Anakin tapped into the dark side for the fight on the Invisible Hand, but remained focused (levelheaded). Later, when he intentionally used the darkside after ascending as Darth Vader, he lost his focus (levelheadedness).
3. As long as the Novel does not contradict the movie it IS cannon.
4. The problem with (2.) is that in order to defeat Dooku, Anakin "removed the walls around his heart". He relinquished his jedi restraint in order to kill Tyrranus. The fact that the duel didn't last long enough to make a fatal mistake is irrelevant, he wasn't thinking clearly, as under his value system (the Jedi Code) taking the count's life was a wrong choice. He even says "I should not have done that", clearly expressing remorse for the kill. He was rash and made a hasty decision then, just like on the hill with Obi Wan that cost him all of his legs and arms.

YES I DO! There is a difference between losing control and giving yourself over to the DS. On the IH he lost control, and the darkside took his actions too far (killing Dooku.) On Mustafar, he had sworn himself to the DS, and was intentionally- I hesitate to say intelligently- using the darkside. Using a loaded gun and accidentally killing your opponent is a lot less effective than picking up a gun with the intent to kill.

Killing the troll, Separatist Leaders and nearly stalemating Master Kenobi don't happen by mistake. He has to have been paying attention. Yes Anakin was more aggressive, but in a saber fight that isn't a bad thing. As far as having an older (MUCH older) wife, whiny personality, and mood swings, I just don't see how they could affect his fighting performance. He could even have used the rage caused by Padme's betrayal to fuel the "furnace" in his heart.

Yes Kenobi's tactics make him the better duelist, but Anakin is simply the better fighter. Kenobi's knowledge of Anakin's style prolonged the conflict for superior tactics to come into play. Mental state and environment helped, but this seems like a cop out- If Anakin had known this, or felt differently about this, etc. then he would have won. I think that this is the Any given Sunday 'clause' and it doesn't seem appropriate.

Anakin was in complete control of the duel until Obi Wan baited him into a trap. This does not show a shortcoming of Anakin's mental state, it shows that Kenobi is the superior tactician.

We are no going to agree on this I see. First how it is that in a different situation or time that Obi Wan could not have lost. He was going to lose to Vader and did. Are you telling that Anakin had the same controlled over his mental state as he did when he became Vader.

You also can excuse the Obi Wan and Maul fight if you want but that is why you do not get it. Tapping and giving yourself how can you view them as affecting Anakin the same?

Also your statements about his actions when turning to the dark side proves what, nothing except that he was following his master’s orders. We are talking about a duel. Even the movie shows that Anakin was not in the same state of mind by his facial expressions.

You forgot Anakin was arrogant and haughty which was amplified by the dark side. Also Anakin stated that he should not kill Dooku before taking off his head.

When I post it is at different times and mostly at night or in the morning. Excuse me if I am not using the correct verbs.

Originally posted by Kotor3
We are no going to agree on this I see. First how it is that in a different situation or time that Obi Wan could not have lost. He was going to lose to Vader and did. Are you telling that Anakin had the same controlled over his mental state as he did when he became Vader.

Originally posted by Kotor3
You also can excuse the Obi Wan and Maul fight if you want but that is why you do not get it. Tapping and giving yourself how can you view them as affecting Anakin the same?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Also your statements about his actions when turning to the dark side proves what, nothing except that he was following his master’s orders. We are talking about a duel. Even the movie shows that Anakin was not in the same state of mind by his facial expressions.

Originally posted by Kotor3
You forgot Anakin was arrogant and haughty which was amplified by the dark side. Also Anakin stated that he should not kill Dooku before taking off his head.

Originally posted by Kotor3
When I post it is at different times and mostly at night or in the morning. Excuse me if I am not using the correct verbs.

If you want I can proof-read your posts for you. [/condescendingass]

Originally posted by Jbill311
I count the Mustafar battle as a win for Obi Wan, as he still has all of his arms and legs. In a different setting, the fight might have turned out differently.
I am in fact telling you that Anakin had the same control (see that, in this sentence, the second verb 'control' remains in the infinitive, because the first verb 'to have' has already been conjugated to 'had'😉 When he killed Dooku, he was out of controll. When he fought Kenobi, Anakin was in better control of his actions. Was he angry? Yes. This would have helped his fighting style, until he made a mistake.

'Tapping' is nearly always a mistake, and is brought on by a momentary loss of control. Giving yourself to the dark side is an intentional, willful embrace of the power of the DS.
Anakin would not have listened to Sidious had he not used the dark side to defeat Dooku. It simply wasn't something he could do. Mace would say: "It's not in his character", but things change when the DS is involved. It supplanted his inhibitions and conditioning to allow him to kill a prisoner in cold blood.

He was pretty arrogant, but that does not drive him insane. It's possible to be a cocky idiot, but still be the best at what you do. (like Ani.) He nearly regained his senses in the Dooku matter, but Sidious had a vested interest in pushing him closer to the Dark Side. The chancellor would have been thrilled that he had come this close to falling already.

The post that I called you on occurred at 9:29 in the evening, hardly the middle of the night.

If you want I can proof-read your posts for you. [/condescendingass]

I see you have become a teacher of grammar good you should start applying that to your logic. You are helping my argument more and more. All jokes aside I do appreciate corrections to my grammar.

Jbill311: 'Tapping' is nearly always a mistake, and is brought on by a momentary loss of control. Giving yourself to the dark side is an intentional, willful embrace of the power of the DS.

Your statement is true for a Jedi. A Jedi should never lose control. Any spark of anger for a Jedi is considered a dark side emotion. Now let us break down the statement so we can apply properly.

To become angry does not mean that you will lose focus or controlled of your mental state. There is a thing called righteous indignation.

Righteous indignation is an emotion one feels when one becomes angry over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice.

Anakin in his fight with Dooku became angry due to what happen to Obi Wan and he was not going to lose again to Dooku. Anakin was focus on wining and saving Obi Wan and the chancellor. Anakin definitely had a right to become emotionally angered. He focused that emotion on Dooku.

Now, becoming angry and being engulfed in anger constantly is quite different. Anakin willing gave in to his dark emotions and was engulfed in them. Did Anakin fully understand was this would mean? No he was only thinking about his wife. Sidious never trained him in any dark side techniques or how to focus and control his dark energies.

It is impossible to say that Anakin was in better shape in his fight with Dooku than he was when he fought Obi Wan. His emotions and state of mind was not only different but more importantly his reasons. In his fight with Dooku he was trying to save two lives. In his fight with Obi Wan it was out of pure anger and frustration. Big Difference!

I borrowed the book from the library. I'll post tomorrow.

I should probably just let this die...

Originally posted by Kotor3
I see you have become a teacher of grammar good you should start applying that to your logic. You are helping my argument more and more. All jokes aside I do appreciate corrections to my grammar.

Jbill311: 'Tapping' is nearly always a mistake, and is brought on by a momentary loss of control. Giving yourself to the dark side is an intentional, willful embrace of the power of the DS.

Your statement is true for a Jedi. A Jedi should never lose control. Any spark of anger for a Jedi is considered a dark side emotion. Now let us break down the statement so we can apply properly.

To become angry does not mean that you will lose focus or controlled of your mental state. There is a thing called righteous indignation.

Righteous indignation is an emotion one feels when one becomes angry over perceived mistreatment, insult, or malice. It is akin to what is called the sense of injustice.

Anakin in his fight with Dooku became angry due to what happen to Obi Wan and he was not going to lose again to Dooku. Anakin was focus on wining and saving Obi Wan and the chancellor. Anakin definitely had a right to become emotionally angered. He focused that emotion on Dooku.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Now, becoming angry and being engulfed in anger constantly is quite different. Anakin willing gave in to his dark emotions and was engulfed in them. Did Anakin fully understand was this would mean? No he was only thinking about his wife. Sidious never trained him in any dark side techniques or how to focus and control his dark energies.

Originally posted by Kotor3
It is impossible to say that Anakin was in better shape in his fight with Dooku than he was when he fought Obi Wan. His emotions and state of mind was not only different but more importantly his reasons. In his fight with Dooku he was trying to save two lives. In his fight with Obi Wan it was out of pure anger and frustration. Big Difference! [/B]

Originally posted by Jbill311
I should probably just let this die...

In the novelization, Anakin is described as being terrified. He uses his fear as fuel for his anger.

I wasn't aware that anyone ever needed training to use their emotions to power the darkside. Even Luke could do it after only a few years as a Force user in ROTJ.

He was determined to defeat Dooku, yes, but against Kenobi he had his sense of outrage that Padme had 'betrayed' him, and his conviction that Obi Wan was evil. His resolve was no less in either battle.

We probably should let this die, it seems like there is some confusion between our lines of thought.

Jbill311: In the novelization, Anakin is described as being terrified. He uses his fear as fuel for his anger.

Kotor3: I have already accepted this statement, why do you keep repeating it? All I have said is that Anakin was focused. Even with fear a person can still be focused.

If you want to prove that Anakin was not focused and out of controlled than do so because you have not. Emotions such as anger and fear can be used to ones advantage and even make them stronger in a situation and more focused.

Once again something you have not addressed, using anger or fear and letting it controlled your every being is not the same. To become enraged is not the same as engulfed in raged.

Nothing more to say on this subject until you come with a valid argument.

Jbill311: I wasn't aware that anyone ever needed training to use their emotions to power the darkside. Even Luke could do it after only a few years as a Force user in ROTJ.

Kotor3: I do not know what more to say to you on this. People are trained in the dark side.

Jbill311: He was determined to defeat Dooku, yes, but against Kenobi he had his sense of outrage that Padme had 'betrayed' him, and his conviction that Obi Wan was evil. His resolve was no less in either battle.

Kotor3: I have gave ample reasons as to why tapping into an emotion is not the same as being engulfed or making it your very being. You keep stating the same thing. According to your logic a person that taps into the dark side is in the same state of mind as a dark user.

How you figure the two and Anakin’s mind set to be the same is beyond me.

in the RotS novelization, Dooku notes that Anakin 'Had the gift of Fury'. He used his emotions to fuel his fighting, and even with Dooku he was winning while holding back. Dooku psyches him out by telling him that he's afraid, and Anakin looses his nerve. Palpatine's intervention re-established Anakin's rage (his groove) and He stops holding back. That's when the count looses. With that level of instinctive ability, isn't it remotely possible that when he intentionally 'allowed the furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical?' When he uses the DS on Mustafar, uses Fury intentionally, which nets much better results. He already used a DS technique (using his emotions to help him fight) so when he frees his emotions, wouldn't that increase his power?

that's the whole of my reasoning for the similarity and increased power level of DS Anakin and 'Tapped' Anakin. If you can understand it (which is hard enough- I did start to rant) and convince me otherwise, I will drop the debate. The term control that seems to have muddied the issue I originally intended to mean control over his own emotions.