I wouldn't say that that necessarily indicates he had completely mastered all abilities ever created in the SW mythos. It's rather apparent he possessed a plethora of knowledge, but having access to every technique is a bit silly; you have to factor in the amount of lore would've been lost or destroyed or kept hidden over the millennia.
And indeed, I just checked page 38 of the DE Sourcebook, which states that it is was only "believed".
Originally posted by Advent
I wouldn't say that that necessarily indicates he had completely mastered all abilities ever created in the SW mythos. It's rather apparent he possessed a plethora of knowledge, but having access to every technique is a bit silly; you have to factor in the amount of lore would've been lost or destroyed or kept hidden over the millennia.
Perhaps, but as I attempted to explain to Janus and Illustrious in years past, the idea that knowledge (like technology) hasn't progressed over the years is rather inept; they believed that the Ancient Sith would have had the greatest cache of Sith and dark side knowledge, and in subsequent years, it would have grown stagnant and sparse.
And indeed, I just checked page 38 of the DE Sourcebook, which states that it is was only "believed".
Still, that statement is corroborated by the ones I have taken from Publius. In addition, Palpatine has access and mastery to the techniques inscribed within the Telos Holocron. All in all, it's very evident that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is the greatest and most all encompassing in the saga.
Originally posted by Jbill311
I don't want to be 'that guy', but isn't Jacen (Caedus) a runner up for force mastery?
He is one of the best but not runner up. He certainly has a broader knowledge of the force then most jedi or sith because he trained with other force groups for 5 years and certainly has abilities like flow walking that most character don't have. But there are few that could be ahead of him.
Originally posted by Jbill311
I don't want to be 'that guy', but isn't Jacen (Caedus) a runner up for force mastery?
Darth Caedus is among the very best. He has demonstrated a wide range and mastery of Force techniques, including the shatterpoint charism, the ability to stifle the Force in others, and flow-walking. Emperor Palpatine's mastery of the Force, however, is the greatest we've seen.
Originally posted by Gideon
Perhaps, but as I attempted to explain to Janus and Illustrious in years past, the idea that knowledge (like technology) hasn't progressed over the years is rather inept; they believed that the Ancient Sith would have had the greatest cache of Sith and dark side knowledge, and in subsequent years, it would have grown stagnant and sparse.
"They"? Who exactly are you referring to? The generations of Sith to come? And anyways, yes, knowledge would've progressed, but there are some things that just likely couldn't have been passed on or survived throughout the ages.
Still, that statement is corroborated by the ones I have taken from Publius. In addition, Palpatine has access and mastery to the techniques inscribed within the Telos Holocron. All in all, it's very evident that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is the greatest and most all encompassing in the saga.
That's a good point, but still you would have to assume that he somehow had access to records that were destroyed, lost, and/or otherwise kept hidden (which means that every single secret in the mythos was preserved for millennia; something highly unlikely). You have to remember that Sidious only could have gained what was available at his time. It's a stretch to say everything was or even if that's the case, that he found it all.
What I'm saying is that it's rather improbable Sidious would've known every last Force ability. Especially when the DE Sourcebook is over a decade old; so much new lore has been introduced since then, it would be asinine to say he got his hands on it all. Even Exar Kun's dark side knowledge was stated to have died with him (stated in the JA Sourcebook, which - if anything - would trump the DE Sourcebook).
Originally posted by Advent
"They"? Who exactly are you referring to? The generations of Sith to come? And anyways, yes, knowledge would've progressed, but there are some things that just likely couldn't have been passed on or survived throughout the ages.
"They" being Illustrious, Janus, ect.
That's a good point, but still you would have to assume that he somehow had access to records that were destroyed, lost, and/or otherwise kept hidden (which means that every single secret in the mythos was preserved for millennia; something highly unlikely). You have to remember that Sidious only could have gained what was available at his time. It's a stretch to say everything was or even if that's the case, that he found it all.What I'm saying is that it's rather improbable Sidious would've known every last Force ability. Especially when the DE Sourcebook is over a decade old; so much new lore has been introduced since then, it would be asinine to say he got his hands on it all. Even Exar Kun's dark side knowledge was stated to have died with him (stated in the JA Sourcebook, which - if anything - would trump the DE Sourcebook).
What exactly is the statement regarding Exar Kun's dark side knowledge? All that he learned from Naga Sadow is available to Palpatine. Still, I suppose my overall point is that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is the greatest and broadest we have seen in canon. Which it is.
Edit: I know this really isn't an articulate response, Advent, but it's late and I feel like shit, lol.
Originally posted by Advent"They"? Who exactly are you referring to? The generations of Sith to come? And anyways, yes, knowledge would've progressed, but there are some things that just likely couldn't have been passed on or survived throughout the ages.
That's a good point, but still you would have to assume that he somehow had access to records that were destroyed, lost, and/or otherwise kept hidden (which means that every single secret in the mythos was preserved for millennia; something highly unlikely). You have to remember that Sidious only could have gained what was available at his time. It's a stretch to say everything was or even if that's the case, that he found it all.
What I'm saying is that it's rather improbable Sidious would've known every last Force ability. Especially when the DE Sourcebook is over a decade old; so much new lore has been introduced since then, it would be asinine to say he got his hands on it all.
Even Exar Kun's dark side knowledge was stated to have died with him (stated in the JA Sourcebook, which - if anything - would trump the DE Sourcebook). [/B]
Originally posted by Gideon
"They" being Illustrious, Janus, ect.
Ah, I see. It would appear I need to get some rest then, sorry.
What exactly is the statement regarding Exar Kun's dark side knowledge?
As according to the Jedi Academy Sourcebook, page 50:
"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun...(keep in mind, even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know of the Sith powers)".
All that he learned from Naga Sadow is available to Palpatine.
Hardly. You would have to prove the lore contained within Sadow's private notes existed elsewhere, which would be difficult considering how it's also said that it's extremely unlikely that records survive elsewhere.
Still, I suppose my overall point is that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is the greatest and broadest we have seen in canon. Which it is.
And I definitely don't have any reason to question that; it's merely the assumption that Sidious was so über he magically secured knowledge of every technique ever to exist. There are numerous reasons to doubt such, as I've already listed in previous posts.
@ Lightsnake:
think the 'they' was Janus and Illustrious. And things such as?
Things such as entire planets, like Malachor V, which carried some importance if we follow Sion's or Kreia's dialogue.
Given the number of Sith Holocrons brought in constantly and created by later Sith, it'd seem far less was lost than was originally thought
But that's not to say that some things weren't destroyed or lost or even undiscovered.
What was available to him was apparently pretty extensive. He had Bane's Holocron by ROTS, consisting of Belia Darzu's, Freedon Nadd's and by extension Naga Sadow's and Revan's, very likely Andeddu's and Nihilus's, access to the spirits of Korriban, and probably a significant amount of others. By Complete Locations, many 'art' pieces in his office are really Sith artifacts and the like and he'[s spent a long time acquiring things of the nature...given his age by AOTC, even, his collection could be extensive.
I'm not arguing he didn't possess a vast amount of lore or artifacts, just that there's absolutely no way everything survived for some thousands of years.
All? Probably not. A very vast deal of it? Another story
^
I have submitted as much, but Sidious securing every single last technique is what my entire point is all about. As such, you're pretty much acknowledging it as valid.
It died with him then, sure, but Jedi vs. Sith seemed to introduce that Palpatine was aware of Kun's knpowledge given that he'd have learned Sadow's knowledge via either other Holocrons, Bane's Holocron, etc.
Originally posted by Advent
Which is written under a section entitled "Sith Alchemy". It stands to reason that it was referring to Naga Sadow's alchemical knowledge, which is supported by Sidious' own appendum. How does this account for the private notes he left on Yavin IV (notice that it's never stated where he secured this holocron)? It doesn't.One could also point out that it's well known that Kun and Nadd learned from Sadow, but he never specifically states that what the secrets they had learned and the ones contained in the holocron were the same. Sidious merely asserts that he'll keep what he gathered secret. Therefore, there would be no contradictions between the JA Sourcebook and JvS.
^ There's no arguing around that, despite what you might be inclined to say. In addition, can you provide proof Bane had access to Sadow's virtual treasure trove on Yavin IV? I don't seem to recall this specifically being mentioned.
And it doesn't seem to just be referencing alchemical knowledge, either, given mention of Nadd.
I find it quite ridiculous to believe that Freedon Nadd knew absolutely nothing of Sith alchemy. After all, Nadd directed Kun to Yavin IV and he [Nadd] went there himself and was the first to uncover Sadow's teachings. Why would he just have learned Sith magic, but completely disregard the rest?
It's a bit unfair to say that the DE sourcebook is out of date there, but not the JA Sourcebook which is also pretty dated.
I'm well aware of that fact. However, later canon doesn't have to conform to earlier entries - it's quite the opposite, in fact.
Originally posted by Advent
Ah, I see. It would appear I need to get some rest then, sorry.As according to the Jedi Academy Sourcebook, page 50:
"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun...(keep in mind, even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know of the Sith powers)"
Hardly. You would have to prove the lore contained within Sadow's private notes existed elsewhere, which would be difficult considering how it's also said that it's extremely unlikely that records survive elsewhere.
@ Lightsnake:Things such as entire planets, like Malachor V, which carried some importance if we follow Sion's or Kreia's dialogue.
But that's not to say that some things weren't destroyed or lost or even undiscovered.
I'm not arguing he didn't possess a vast amount of lore or artifacts, just that there's absolutely no way everything survived for some thousands of years.
^I have submitted as much, but Sidious securing every single last technique is what my entire point is all about. As such, you're pretty much acknowledging it as valid.
^ There's no arguing around that, despite what you might be inclined to say. In addition, can you provide proof Bane had access to Sadow's virtual treasure trove on Yavin IV? I don't seem to recall this specifically being mentioned.
I find it quite ridiculous to believe that Freedon Nadd knew absolutely nothing of Sith alchemy.
After all, Nadd directed Kun to Yavin IV and he [Nadd] went there himself and was the first to uncover Sadow's teachings. Why would he just have learned Sith magic, but completely disregard the rest?
I'm well aware of that fact. However, later canon doesn't have to conform to earlier entries - it's quite the opposite, in fact.
He actually speaks the truth.
Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two, Page 103:
"Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as an apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side. As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow and taking his place."
Originally posted by Taven
He actually speaks the truth.Star Wars: Darth Bane: Rule of Two, Page 103:
"Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as an apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side. As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow and taking his place."
What species was Nadd?
Human.
But yeah, knowledge is definitely one area I would given Palpatine mad ratings in. He possesses all of Revan and Sadow's knowledge, the holocrons of Andeddu and Belia Darzhu, numerous other Sith sources of knowledge that the RoT Order had been gathering for an entire millennium, and later on of course he begins creating his own techniques, and that's not even taking into account all of his arcane learnings from the numerous Force Using races and organisations throughout the Galaxy that he encountered. As far as knowledge goes, he's #1 by a good margin.
Originally posted by Taven
Human.But yeah, knowledge is definitely one area I would given Palpatine mad ratings in. He possesses all of Revan and Sadow's knowledge, the holocrons of Andeddu and Belia Darzhu, numerous other Sith sources of knowledge that the RoT Order had been gathering for an entire millennium, and later on of course he begins creating his own techniques, and that's not even taking into account all of his arcane learnings from the numerous Force Using races and organisations throughout the Galaxy that he encountered. As far as knowledge goes, he's #1 by a good margin.
Does Nadd appear in RoT?
Originally posted by Gideon
"They" being Illustrious, Janus, ect.What exactly is the statement regarding Exar Kun's dark side knowledge? All that he learned from Naga Sadow is available to Palpatine. Still, I suppose my overall point is that Palpatine's knowledge of the Force is the greatest and broadest we have seen in canon. Which it is.
Edit: I know this really isn't an articulate response, Advent, but it's late and I feel like shit, lol.
Illustrious was a woman right?