Originally posted by Enyalus
Yes. JA Luke is stronger than Yoda. Dark Techniques such as...? Besides his Sith Amulet blast, which makes him lose his mind if he uses it more than a few times...
I did not know the Amulet would do that to Kun. I guess Kun won't use the same technique on Yoda that he did on JA Luke.
I mean Yoda has proven to resist all kinds of dark techniques such as force lighting and force choke, the only two known dark techniques that I have seen used in the PT era. 😄
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Then you haven't been listening. Kun as a spirit had to get Luke in the center of his power, distract him and attack him on both fronts with Kyp. JA Luke, btw, not NJO Luke, FAR from Luke's peak.So, unless Kun is going to face Yoda on Yavin 4, distract him with a student, force him to hold back a great deal to prevent from hurting said student?
You can go on about these 'unfamiliar force techniques' but Yoda's the one who's spent 900 years or so learning how to fight the Dark Side and given that he's one of the few Jedi Masters who accessed Sith Holocrons in order to learn about their techniques, then it's a safe bet he knows quite a bit. Unless you wish to argue Kun's six months of study exceeded Palpatine's decades in quality.
Sorry for the double post but Yoda spent 900 years learning how to fight the dark side? That is a long time to spend learning and still not be able to defeat Sidious.
That example alone shows that decades of quality learning does not constitute a win.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Sorry for the double post but Yoda spent 900 years learning how to fight the dark side? That is a long time to spend learning and still not be able to defeat Sidious.That example alone shows that decades of quality learning does not constitute a win.
Well, he's got ya there, LS. 😉
Originally posted by EnyalusProof of this? And I don't mean in raw power, but as a combatant.
Yes. JA Luke is stronger than Yoda.
Dark Techniques such as...?Such as the Sith amulet blasts, the "ebony lightning" he uses through Kyp Durron, the red bolt he immediately floored Aleema Keto with, whatever power he used to kill Odan-Urr, his Force lightning, and the creation of dark side phantoms to destroy Luke's inert body. Not to mention the amplified telekinesis granted to him by the amulets on top of his own "[immense power]" (from "immensely powerful"😉, his mental manipulation of tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of Senators simultaneously while he walked up to the Chancellor and reduced him to a wreck with his mind control, and his complete immunity to Odan-Urr's Force-sever technique.
Besides his Sith Amulet blast, which makes him lose his mind if he uses it more than a few times...This is bullshit, really, as nothing of the sort happens. He instinctively calls upon the amulet in a rage while uttering some sort of Sith chant, and starts blowing up everything in sight. The amulet is stated to amplify his rage a hundred thousand times, and it's discharge grows progressively stronger until he stops firing it. He then notes that his hand is burned, but he feels no pain, and that he was beginning to lose control of his power.
Considering how much he advances during his time on Yavin, it's a safe bet that he'd have learned to control it by the time of his destruction.
Originally posted by Faunus
Proof of this? And I don't mean in raw power, but as a combatant.
Such as the Sith amulet blasts, the "ebony lightning" he uses through Kyp Durron, the red bolt he immediately floored Aleema Keto with, whatever power he used to kill Odan-Urr, his Force lightning, and the creation of dark side phantoms to destroy Luke's inert body. Not to mention the amplified telekinesis granted to him by the amulets on top of his own "[immense power]" (from "immensely powerful"😉, his mental manipulation of tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of Senators simultaneously while he walked up to the Chancellor and reduced him to a wreck with his mind control, and his complete immunity to Odan-Urr's Force-sever technique.
This is bullshit, really, as nothing of the sort happens. He instinctively calls upon the amulet in a rage while uttering some sort of Sith chant, and starts blowing up everything in sight. The amulet is stated to amplify his rage a hundred thousand times, and it's discharge grows progressively stronger until he stops firing it. He then notes that his hand is burned, but he feels no pain, and that he was beginning to lose control of his power.Considering how much he advances during his time on Yavin, it's a safe bet that he'd have learned to control it by the time of his destruction.
Oh, damn. You took KOTOR3's side? lol, I quit.
I have one question, because I haven't read the arc (or novel?) that Kun severs Luke's spirit from his body - is JA Luke before or after the Dark Empire series? DE is six years after the Battle of Endor.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Sorry for the double post but Yoda spent 900 years learning how to fight the dark side? That is a long time to spend learning and still not be able to defeat Sidious.That example alone shows that decades of quality learning does not constitute a win.
And for that record, do you see Bane using any of the amazing Sith Powers he learned from Revan's holocron beyond Force Wave or lightning in melee combat?
Oh, and Enyalus, it's after DE. But again, circumstances worked out to Kun's favor. If he had a prayer of taking Luke in that form, even after Gantoris's energy, he would have.
It's worth pointing out in a direct confrontation, Exar's spirit isn't really worth much in a fight when an opponent is ready for him as SW Galaxy showed us.
Now, a living Kun is a different animal entirely, of course. I don't think Faunus is siding against Yoda so much as pointing out Kun's powers and abilities.
Originally posted by LightsnakeHe did almost kill him, and would have it weren't little random Solo children using lightsabers with the guidance of their disembodied uncle.
Oh, and Enyalus, it's after DE. But again, circumstances worked out to Kun's favor. If he had a prayer of taking Luke in that form, even after Gantoris's energy, he would have.
Seriously.
Now, a living Kun is a different animal entirely, of course. I don't think Faunus is siding against Yoda so much as pointing out Kun's powers and abilities.Yep. He's a formidable, if rather poorly defined, character. They should re-do the TotJ and GAotS stories, sans the amulets and star-destroying ships, and vanishing Jedi Masters (that's Qui-Gon's territory). Hell, I've only read two post-RotJ stories (Truce at Bakura and Traitor) but that whole era needs a reworking. Traviss needs to be fired.
I don't think Kun has any chance against a post DE Luke. I wanted clarification because Faunus asked me for proof that JA Luke would be a more skilled combatant than Yoda.
If Yoda was only able to stalemate ROTS Sidious in a duel, and Luke ended up beating DE Sidious in a duel (with possible battle meditation from Leia - that's speculative), then it should be safe to say that JA Luke, which is post DE, should be able to defeat Yoda in battle as well.
Originally posted by Faunus
He did almost kill him, and would have it weren't little random Solo children using lightsabers with the guidance of their disembodied uncle.Seriously.
Yep. He's a formidable, if rather poorly defined, character. They should re-do the TotJ and GAotS stories, sans the amulets and star-destroying ships, and vanishing Jedi Masters (that's Qui-Gon's territory). Hell, I've only read two post-RotJ stories (Truce at Bakura and Traitor) but that whole era needs a reworking. Traviss needs to be fired.
And unfortunately, Traviss keeps making money through her Jedi hating, Mando fangirling nonsense. Did you read this amazing criticism a guy at TFN did on Revelation?
As for Kun and Yoda...I'd give Yoda a slight edge as unlike Odan, he's actually remotely useful for anything else but 'sit there and look wise.' Maybe it's just KJA's wriitng, but Odan in GaoTS takes the cake for being 'most useless Jedi ever'...and help the title until Coleman Trebor was shot by Jango Fett
Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's an example of Palpatine's power, not Yoda's deficiency. And again, are you going to tell me, for even a second that Palpatine, the heir of the most powerful line of Sith Lords, with access to decades worth of knowledge of the Holocron of somebody who not only had all the knowledge Kun did, but more besides, with access to other Holocrons and the very spirits of Kun's forebears, is going to be somehow less knowledgable than Kun who had access only to sources from Sadow and six months to study it?And for that record, do you see Bane using any of the amazing Sith Powers he learned from Revan's holocron beyond Force Wave or lightning in melee combat?
That is my point Lightsnake. Yes it is an example of Palpatine's power as the same could be said of Kun who advanced so quickly in the time he did. If Kun was alive in flesh as long as Sidious was then lets see who would have been more powerful.
Of course that did not happen so it is not up for discussion. The statement that Sidious knows all of Kun's techniques is a debated topic not fact so do not state it as one.
Originally posted by EnyalusThe assistance isn't speculative. The nature of it is, but whatever Leia did turned that duel around completely.
If Yoda was only able to stalemate ROTS Sidious in a duel, and Luke ended up beating DE Sidious in a duel (with possible battle meditation from Leia - that's speculative),
then it should be safe to say that JA Luke, which is post DE, should be able to defeat Yoda in battle as well.No, because again, Luke has no skill. He operates under sheer power alone, and there're maybe five people in the saga aside from Luke who wield power in or above Yoda's league (Starkiller, Sidious, Durron are the ones in mind), and none of them but Sidious possess the skills at Yoda's disposable. The same Sidious who, as of DE, was capable of disarming Skywalker in two moves.
Originally posted by Kotor3
That is my point Lightsnake. Yes it is an example of Palpatine's power as the same could be said of Kun who advanced so quickly in the time he did. If Kun was alive in flesh as long as Sidious was then lets see who would have been more powerful.
Of course that did not happen so it is not up for discussion. The statement that Sidious knows all of Kun's techniques is a debated topic not fact so do not state it as one.
Who do you think has the better knowledge base here?
Originally posted by LightsnakeYoda's raw power almost certainly eclipses Odan's, yeah, although it's doubtful that he has more knowledge of the Force. I definitely agree that Yoda would solidly defeat the older Jedi in a Force-battle, and obliterate him in a duel.
As for Kun and Yoda...I'd give Yoda a slight edge as unlike Odan, he's actually remotely useful for anything else but 'sit there and look wise.' Maybe it's just KJA's wriitng, but Odan in GaoTS takes the cake for being 'most useless Jedi ever'...and help the title until Coleman Trebor was shot by Jango Fett
Knowledge wise, it'd be a bit tough to discern, given they're both amazingly old Jedi masters who devoted so much to study...though Yoda made it a point to do some traveling to study with a good deal of Force Sensitive groups.
As it goes, though, I can't see Kun killing Yoda with a wave of a hand. Any thoughts on that yourself?
Originally posted by Faunus
Forgot about Bane, and left out Caedus because I don't recall him exhibiting notable power in the Force - all I know is that he got humiliated by Luke.
I'd put Bane w/ orbalisks in Yoda's league. We don't see him much without them, and when we do, he isn't. But yeah, Force-wise, Bane w/ orbalisks would be Yoda-class to me as well. I have Rule of Two, I can post quotes when I get home about his Force Lightning and whatnot. It's certainly more powerful than Dooku's and seems like it rivals ROTS Sidious' in terms of number of arcs and width and strength of the blasts, too.