Originally posted by EnyalusIt would avoid him being cut off the force because you can't touch a force bond that isn't there or a bond that you cannot see or sense. To your opponent, you would appear dead in the force and because of that their precognition abilities are useless.
Shielding sensitivity wouldn't help him avoid the Triumvirate's force attacks, would it? Especially if they could actually see him so that they didn't need to feel his presence.I'm asking. I don't know.
Traya used it on a dozen invisible Sith assassins, who would presumably mask their presence in the Force through the use of a similar technique. You're forgetting that these three Sith spearheaded the Jedi Purge - they're probably more experienced with this manner of Force usage than most. Well, Sion and Traya, at least.
Originally posted by Tangible God
Not sever, mask. Hide his connection. Though it won't help him much, as they know he's there.And Kreia's not much of a source when it comes to power measures. I played through the game again recently and she contradicts an oft-quoted piece; "One cannot have power as he does and still perceive the Universe as we do." (Which itself is her opinion only). She goes on to say (not too long afterwards): "Power? You think so?" And I'm not citing that whole bit from memory, but she downplays Nihilus' power. Her's is opinion that's a bit biased from personal experience. She doesn't know Palpatine or his abilities, or whether or not he's learned these "defenses."
I still see DE Sidious winning this, though not Vader.
From what I read I take it that you agree that masking his power would not help then.
Of course Kreia is just giving her opinion, but you have to admit shes pretty damn knowledgeable about the force and things in general. For instance she saw thousands of years into the future to predict the fall of the republic. Also that bit you quoted is misleading, Kreia never downplays Nihilus' raw power, "Power? You think so?" has to do with her definition of what power really is, Nihilus gets his power from hunger and she didnt believe that can be real power in the grand scheme of things.
Also its irrelevent whether Kreia knew about Palpatines defenses or not(she probably does if she can see so far in the future). Why? Because Kreias quote clearly states that there is no defense to the power that Nihilus uses.
Again I'll grant that Kreias word isnt absolute, but the arguments you guys are using in favor of Palpatine being able to defend it are based purely on crude speculation.
Originally posted by Faunus
Traya used it on a dozen invisible Sith assassins, who would presumably mask their presence in the Force through the use of a similar technique. You're forgetting that these three Sith spearheaded the Jedi Purge - they're probably more experienced with this manner of Force usage than most. Well, Sion and Traya, at least.
Not being an expert on KotOR or its dreaded sequel, where is it confirmed that Sith assassins mask their presence in the Force using Quey'tek or a variant thereof? Comparing a dozen neophyte assassins to the most powerful dark side Force user in history isn't very flattering.
Sith Assassins in Bane's time period masked their Force sensitivity, to the point that neither Zannah nor Bane with his orbalisks could sense them, even though they were only several feet away.
I will admit I don't know much prior to that, except the fact that they're specifically trained to kill Force-sensitives.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Sith Assassins in Bane's time period masked their Force sensitivity, to the point that neither Zannah nor Bane with his orbalisks could sense them, even though they were only several feet away.I will admit I don't know much prior to that, except the fact that they're specifically trained to kill Force-sensitives.
Still, the assassins of Bane's time aren't necessarily the equals of those of Revan's.
Originally posted by GideonI didn't say it was "confirmed," I said "I presume" it to be the truth, as the shadow army of the Sith wouldn't be very useful if their presence could be sensed in any real manner.
Not being an expert on KotOR or its dreaded sequel, where is it confirmed that Sith assassins mask their presence in the Force using Quey'tek or a variant thereof?
Comparing a dozen neophyte assassins to the most powerful dark side Force user in history isn't very flattering.Neophyte? Hardly. They're all either Dark Jedi (IIRC) or trained Force-sensitives, and happen to be the soldiers used by the Sith Triumvirate to carry out their will.
But no, I am in no way comparing their power to that of Sidious.
Originally posted by Great VengeanceThat's also speculation. Kreia's word isn't law, as you say yourself. There's nothing to suggest she knows the inner workings of Palpatine's mind. Note also, that everything she foretold was pertinent in her time as well. A man 4000 years in the future does not hold the magnitude that the long-lasting Republic and Mandalorians did (i.e. Palpatine wasn't relevant yet, so there is no prediction concerning him).
Also its irrelevent whether Kreia knew about Palpatines defenses or not(she probably does if she can see so far in the future). Why? Because Kreias quote clearly states that there is no defense to the power that Nihilus uses.Again I'll grant that Kreias word isnt absolute, but the arguments you guys are using in favor of Palpatine being able to defend it are based purely on crude speculation.
I'm no expert on Palpatine, but from what I know of his DE incarnation, it just seems to me unreasonable that he couldn't contend with Nihilus.
He was severed by Luke and Leia, who to my knowledge had never done anything like that before. Nihilus and Traya perfected the technique. Also, DE Sids doesn't show off a whole lot of versatility or defense. Unless I'm forgetting something, what he basically does throughout the arc is:
Use his Force Storm to open a wormhole and transport Luke from point A to point B.
Duels Luke and wins.
Uses his Force Lightning to shock but not kill Leia.
Attempts to touch Leia's stomach and gets electrocuted himself.
Duels Luke and loses.
Uses his Force Storm to destroy a non-active, basically parked rebel fleet on their planet's HQ's.
Gets Force Severed by Luke and Leia and killed by his own Force Storm.
So...yeah. I don't recall any vast defensive capabilities or even any variety in his attacks. At least Luke destroys some droids by messing up their internal gears and whatnot. 😖
Originally posted by Tangible God
That's also speculation. Kreia's word isn't law, as you say yourself. There's nothing to suggest she knows the inner workings of Palpatine's mind. Note also, that everything she foretold was pertinent in her time as well. A man 4000 years in the future does not hold the magnitude that the long-lasting Republic and Mandalorians did (i.e. Palpatine wasn't relevant yet, so there is no prediction concerning him).I'm no expert on Palpatine, but from what I know of his DE incarnation, it just seems to me unreasonable that he couldn't contend with Nihilus.
Its speculation but it isnt my speculation. Its the speculation of a very knowledgeable force user that there is no defense that can be learned against Nihilus' force drain. And since we never see anyone able to resist the force drain, not the Jedi(who very likely had more knowledge of dark side techniques than modern Jedi being that they actually fought wars against them in that time period) not a planet full of force users nor even Kreia herself, Im inclined to believe it. The Exile is able to resist but hes a special case, hes a wound in the force, and I really doubt that somone could duplicate his situation at will.
And Kreia was capable of making predictions about individuals. "They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi." Boba Fett ring a bell? I'll grant that the prophecy was a bit vague and cryptic, but thats the way she always is.
Originally posted by Faunus"Presumably", not confirmed yet. But how do you know exactly that she really stripped their force connection off?
Traya used it on a dozen invisible Sith assassins, who would presumably mask their presence in the Force through the use of a similar technique. You're forgetting that these three Sith spearheaded the Jedi Purge - they're probably more experienced with this manner of Force usage than most. Well, Sion and Traya, at least.
Anyways, in your opinion at least, how do you defend against this technique? If its so easy to cut people off the force like that then why isn't every dark lord doing so to his/her victims?
Originally posted by Great VengeanceAgain, Kreia's a manipulative b*tch and not a final credential. Hers is an opinion that should always be treated with skepticism. But yeah, she and Nihilus would know more about the Force Drain, though exactly how it would affect DE Sidious only leads to more speculation. Game mechanics aside, I'm still not convinced Nihilus' power is absolute and swift (he seemed to let an extraordinary number of opponents in his sights not only live, but defeat him). And Kreia's drain is seen used on three Jedi Masters who do not rival Sidious in general power nor mastery of the Dark Side. That said, it's just as unreasonable to think Palpatine could resist Kreia's drain as it would be say he couldn't overcome it.
Its speculation but it isnt my speculation. Its the speculation of a very knowledgeable force user that there is no defense that can be learned against Nihilus' force drain. And since we never see anyone able to resist the force drain, not the Jedi(who very likely had more knowledge of dark side techniques than modern Jedi being that they actually fought wars against them in that time period) not a planet full of force users nor even Kreia herself, Im inclined to believe it. The Exile is able to resist but hes a special case, hes a wound in the force, and I really doubt that somone could duplicate his situation at will.And Kreia was capable of making predictions about individuals. "They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi." Boba Fett ring a bell? I'll grant that the prophecy was a bit vague and cryptic, but thats the way she always is.
My point about her predictions is that every subject she predicted 4000 years in the future was relevant to her back then. The Republic, the Jedi and the Mandalorians were relevant to the galaxy in Kreia's day just as they were in the PT. Palaptine, however was only pertinent in the PT, not the JCW. So that combined with her incredible lack of specifics points to her not knowing about Palpatine, nevermind a detailed account of his mind and powers of the Dark Side.
And woah, almost missed that. Exile=she.
Originally posted by SchwarzeneggerShe does the exact same thing to them that she does to the Jedi Masters.
"Presumably", not confirmed yet. But how do you know exactly that she really stripped their force connection off?
Anyways, in your opinion at least, how do you defend against this technique?How would I know?
If its so easy to cut people off the force like that then why isn't every dark lord doing so to his/her victims?If it's so easy for DE Sidious to disintegrate metal with his lightning, why doesn't every Dark Lord do it?
Really. Nihilus and Traya are rather far above the norm.
Originally posted by Tangible God
Again, Kreia's a manipulative b*tch and not a final credential. Hers is an opinion that should always be treated with skepticism. But yeah, she and Nihilus would know more about the Force Drain, though exactly how it would affect DE Sidious only leads to more speculation. Game mechanics aside, I'm still not convinced Nihilus' power is absolute and swift (he seemed to let an extraordinary number of opponents in his sights not only live, but defeat him). And Kreia's drain is seen used on three Jedi Masters who do not rival Sidious in general power nor mastery of the Dark Side. That said, it's just as unreasonable to think Palpatine could resist Kreia's drain as it would be say he couldn't overcome it.My point about her predictions is that every subject she predicted 4000 years in the future was relevant to her back then. The Republic, the Jedi and the Mandalorians were relevant to the galaxy in Kreia's day just as they were in the PT. Palaptine, however was only pertinent in the PT, not the JCW. So that combined with her incredible lack of specifics points to her not knowing about Palpatine, nevermind a detailed account of his mind and powers of the Dark Side.
And woah, almost missed that. Exile=she.
Well yes the real truth of the matter is that Nihilus is an unknown. Any argument involving him inevitably comes to nothing because no one has any concrete evidence on whether it can be resisted or not. Like I said before, Im inclined to believe that it cannot be resisted based on the Kreia quote and my own speculation but I agree that it isnt absolute proof and your free to make your own conclusions.
I fail to see how this is relevent. Kreia didnt name any names but her predictions are too close to the truth of the matter to just ignore. I never did try to prove that Kreia has an intimate knowledge of Palpatine, I merely hinted that it was possible and much like the Nihilus argument, there is no concrete evidence either way.
"They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi."
That she foresaw the coming of the Rule of Two (Darth Bane was around 1000 BBY, hence millennia), the Battle of Geonosis and the Great Jedi Purge would almost certainly mean she knew of Darth Sidious. I don't even think it matters if she knew intimate details about him or not - it shows remarkable precognition of the highest order. And makes her a fairly reliable witness in regards to most of anything she says. No one dismisses Yoda when he answers people cryptically - and his foresight, along with the rest of the PT Council, was shit in comparison.