Originally posted by Great VengeanceWhat are you talking about? Revan was said to have been more powerful coming back to the lightside than he was as a Sith. Yoda, a Jedi, is noted as being "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known." That would include Revan both times as a Jedi. "Ever known" includes all time periods.
And how did you deduce hes inferior to Yoda? Opinion. Also about the Sidious quote, the ROTS novel is not exactly a trustworthy source because it contradicts the movie several times, but either way that quote is unrelated to Revan because he has the option of becoming a Jedi, and even if he becomes a Sith its heavily implied in kotor 2 that it was solely for the reason of countering the hidden sith empire and that Revan never truly fell.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
What are you talking about? Revan was said to have been more powerful coming back to the lightside than he was as a Sith. Yoda, a Jedi, is noted as being "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known." That would include Revan both times as a Jedi. "Ever known" includes all time periods.
Ah your right I misinterpreted, I thought he was talking about that Sidious quote. Still, my argument stands because Revan isnt easily classed as a Jedi just the same as he isnt easily classed as a Sith. And the ROTS novel is full of crap, it contradicts the movies.
"Opinion", "full of crap", "contradicts the movies" are excuses, but not good ones.
The omniscient narrator calls Yoda "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known". He is not only stronger than any Jedi but anyone who has ever fought the dark side; Revan, canonically, is one of those people. Moreover, that does not contradict the movies.
Yoda > Revan. Accept it and move on. It's not up for debate.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Wasn't it said that Revan was the best duelist in an Order of thousands? Or am I thinking of another KotoR godlike being?
I have no idea. But even if that quote was 'bout him, that doesn't say much, considering that virtually everyone in the Order was basically an unknown in terms of saber skills. Stick Mace or Obi-Wan there, and they would also be the greatest swordsman in that order.
Unknowns are unknowns. And Obi-Wan isn't an unknown; he's arguably one of the greatest lightsaber combatants of all time.
Originally posted by Faunus
Based on...?
Originally posted by Enyalus
Also, Revan made his own effing Sith Holocron, plus wrote at least one book on the Dark Side. Safe to say, his knowledge and control of the Force is greater than Dooku's.
Yup...that's my reason. And sure, you could come back with, "that doesn't mean anything, Dooku was busy starting a war." Or, uh, something. But then I'd probably say, "And Revan was busy winning one." And we could go from there.
Originally posted by EnyalusYou side with the infidel?
Yup...that's my reason. And sure, you could come back with, "that doesn't mean anything, Dooku was busy starting a war." Or, uh, something. But then I'd probably say, "And Revan was busy winning one." And we could go from there.
But, um, no. Revan certainly had a greater grasp of the Dark side, but that doesn't mean he was more powerful. And while I actually adhere to that stance (Revan > Dooku in power) I don't really know why, as he has little supporting him but hyperbolic statements from those who were awed and enamored by him.
Originally posted by Gideon
"Opinion", "full of crap", "contradicts the movies" are excuses, but not good ones.The omniscient narrator calls Yoda "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known". He is not only stronger than any Jedi but anyone who has ever fought the dark side; Revan, canonically, is one of those people. Moreover, that does not contradict the movies.
Yoda > Revan. Accept it and move on. It's not up for debate.
They arent excuse, if the novel contradicts higher level canon(the movies) that puts the entire novel into a questionable area.
Also the Jedi fight the darkness with light, Revan became a lesser evil in order to fight a greater evil, it would be ignorant to classify him as of the light side. He made his own decisions and didnt directly follow the light or dark side as heavily implied in kotor 2.
It is up for a debate, its been debated countless times before and there will never likely be valid evidence which shows that Revan is stronger or weaker than the more modern powerhouses.
Excuse the double post, but GV's canonicity point is pretty good. Is there more than one quote that states Yoda as being the most powerful Jedi ever? Otherwise you could argue that that particular author was using hyperbole. Especially if only one author confirms it. Authors have made mistakes *coughs*Drew*coughs* and exaggerated their characters abilities *coughs*Drew*coughs*. In addition, we've seen all the crap that the TFU novel put into play, stomping all over canon and in general making no sense whatsoever. At least we have multiple and numerous in-novel and in-movie quotes that state Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord ever.
No. It's not a good point.
The novel was personally reviewed by George Lucas, who approved of every line and every statement made by the book- if he didn't think Yoda > Revan (and all other Jedi previously), he wouldn't have allowed that line. Seriously, that's ridiculous.
This is valid evidence putting Yoda directly over Revan. And, besides, Revan would still have fought the darkness; Yoda was labelled the most powerful person to ever fight the dark. That includes Revan.
Originally posted by Great VengeanceActually, according to L. Chee (I believe) any time a novel contradicts the movie, just the part that is contradicted is dismissed. Plus, the fact that GL worked extremely close with the author, further suggests that it is one of the more complete canon novels we've been given.
They arent excuse, if the novel contradicts higher level canon(the movies) that puts the entire novel into a questionable area.
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
No. It's not a good point.The novel was personally reviewed by George Lucas, who approved of every line and every statement made by the book- if he didn't think Yoda > Revan (and all other Jedi previously), he wouldn't have allowed that line. Seriously, that's ridiculous.
This is valid evidence putting Yoda directly over Revan. And, besides, Revan would still have fought the darkness; Yoda was labelled the most powerful person to ever fight the dark. That includes Revan.
Where was it said that George Lucas approved everything in the novel? Im not necessarily calling you a liar but your position would be more credible if you would provide proof. I find it hard to believe that GL would willingly allow contradictions to the movies in the novel.
And no, Yoda was labelled the most devasting foe that the darkness had ever faced. Lets look at the definition of foe:
1: one who has personal enmity for another
2 a: an enemy in war b: adversary, opponent
3: one who opposes on principle <a foe of needless expenditures>
4: something prejudicial or injurious
A foe must have opposing principles. The principles that the book means in paticular are the light and dark sides of the force, what else could 'the darkness' mean? Revan as Sith may be a lesser evil than the true sith but he was still far removed from the ideals of the Jedi. For instance in the novel Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, Bane finds a holocron from Revan and described him as a true lord of the sith, and the holocron is where he learned alot of his knowledge and ideals. Does Revan sound like an opponent to the dark side now? Though he cant truly be classified as Sith because they only work out of self interest where as Revan wanted to preserve the galaxy from the hidden sith, even if his means to do so were decidedly against Jedi teachings. Its evident that Revan cant be classified as dark or light which has been my point all along. Revan is unrelated to the conflict between the dark and light sides of the force which the ROTS quote describes.
Originally posted by Gideon
"Opinion", "full of crap", "contradicts the movies" are excuses, but not good ones.The omniscient narrator calls Yoda "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known". He is not only stronger than any Jedi but anyone who has ever fought the dark side; Revan, canonically, is one of those people. Moreover, that does not contradict the movies.
Yoda > Revan. Accept it and move on. It's not up for debate.
I'm afraid, Gideon. That is up for debate.
Because, you know, the notion that Revan as a Jedi > Revan as a Sith Lord, just happens to be the personal opinion of Malak, which doesn't make that statement a fact. And since that statement isn't a fact, Revan could still have been stronger as a Sith than he was as a Jedi. As we are discussing Darth Revan here, he still can be stronger than Yoda [although I doubt that].
Not that it would even matter, Gideon. Because we neither know how great that "gap" between Yoda and the second most powerful Jedi is, nor do we know, if said gap in terms of power can't be compensated with other abilities that would matter in a direct confrontation [force techniques, physical abilities, other skills, items like Sith amulets etc.]
And aside of that, Gideon, you should edge forward to the fact, that any piece of literature is subject to interpretation, hyperbole or, when it comes to character thoughts / statements, falsification. In this case, you might notice something in the original quote:
"Finally, he saw the truth. This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known [...]"
Notice. The omnicient narrator clearly recaps the "truth" from Yoda's point of view. The "truth" that Yoda was seeing. Which might be "true" from an objective or omniscient point of view - but doesn't have to be. And in this case, the statement would prevent any Jedi from defeating Sidious, since Yoda is the most powerful one and can't do the job, which - obviously - can't be true, since we know that Mace Windu did already defeat Sidious prior to the Sith Lords confrontation with Yoda.
I also agree with GV statements about Revan. Can we actually call Revan a Jedi during the events of Kotor? When he gained his memory he never returned to the Jedi Order. All we know is that Reven has the ability to use both light and dark side techniques.
We have yet to see Revan at his full potential as force user.