Project Holocron

Originally posted by Gideon
I don't recall her being in the way the entire time. And, as I recall, Sing attempted to deal with Jacen first so that she would then be unopposed to kill Allana. Vader owned her while toying with her.

Seriously.

Originally posted by Gideon
Where was it confirmed that he's capable of killing her whenever he wants?

Define "sheer power", please. His father, for one, is someone who surpasses him in terms of raw power. Or are you referring to unleashed power manifested in a fight? Moreover, Solo is only confirmed to be stronger than Vader by Invincible (compare Solo's duel with Aurra Sing to Vader's). Nothing suggests he is on par with the Emperor.

Again, I wouldn't say that. Skywalker was critically injured by Solo during their duel. He displays superiority in Force aptitude in mastery, but Solo can challenge and severely injure him in a lightsaber contest.

backed up by Sacrifice when Luke utterly wrecks her and takes her head off

Originally posted by Faunus
He never displays the power he's capable of wielding up until that point - I highly doubt that in the span of one book he goes from merely extraordinary to one of the greatest of all time.

i agree completely but take in mind that the LOTF authors made jacen more powerful just by having him give himself his sith name.

I'm going to have to take a look at the exact statement, LS, unless you can provide it. As far as his defeat of Lumiya is concerned, let it be known that she expressed a desire to die and solely engaged Luke to pin the blame on Mara's death on herself, so as to spare Jacen. Nothing suggests she was fighting her hardest (though I'm aware she could never defeat Luke). He moved her across the cliff like a battering ram, I believe, were the exact words used.

As far as his immobilization of Caedus is concerned, Faunus, the novel itself states that Luke "took him by surprise". While I grant you that his maintaining of that telekinetic stranglehold heavily implies dominance, the statement that he was "taken by surprise" also implies that Jacen could have fought it.

Nothing indicates Lumiya held back at their final battle. Luke simply goes with intent to kill and kill quickly, something he's never, ever done with Lumiya before. Lumiya simply knew he'd kill her and there wasn't any escape.

As for Exile, I don't own the book, or do I have it at hand, but as I know: Lumiya and Luke speak, Lumiya tells him he could have killed her at any time, and Luke says he could and he'll hear her out.

That Luke destroyed her decades ago and Lumiya hasn't indicated she's improved at all, this speaks volumes.

And if Caedus could have fought it, he likely would have rather than leave himself to the mercy of Luke Skywalker's 'much strained' sense of decency.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nothing indicates Lumiya held back at their final battle.

She readily admitted to Jacen Solo that she was looking forward to her death and only confronted Skywalker to assume the blame for Mara's death.

Luke simply goes with intent to kill and kill quickly, something he's never, ever done with Lumiya before. Lumiya simply knew he'd kill her and there wasn't any escape.

You're correct in the former statement, incorrect in the latter.

As for Exile, I don't own the book, or do I have it at hand, but as I know: Lumiya and Luke speak, Lumiya tells him he could have killed her at any time, and Luke says he could and he'll hear her out.

I do own the book and I'll be checking the scene in particular later. As I recall, she stopped fighting and gave him the opportunity to kill her, not that she was outclassed and said "LOLZ YOU CAN OWN ME" to which Skywalker agrees.

That Luke destroyed her decades ago and Lumiya hasn't indicated she's improved at all, this speaks volumes.

Because infamous Dark Jedi with secret agendas allow their abilities to decline?

And if Caedus could have fought it, he likely would have rather than leave himself to the mercy of Luke Skywalker's 'much strained' sense of decency.

I didn't say that Caedus could have fought it off. I said that he might of, had he been prepared. Skywalker "took him by surprise" and that is the end of it.

Originally posted by Gideon
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Again, I wouldn't say that. Skywalker was critically injured by Solo during their duel. He displays superiority in Force aptitude in mastery, but Solo can challenge and severely injure him in a lightsaber contest.

I have the novel for that duel, and Caedus's own thoughts make it clear that he was severly and utterly beaten before ben ever stepped in. something along the lines of "luke had taken everything caedus had thrown at him, and just kept coming. He had given it his very best shot, and he had been beaten" thats not the exact quote. I'll post the quote of that fight later tonight. If i'm lucky, i can pull it up from another thread i typed it into a long time ago. but that's if i'm lucky!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
As for Exile, I don't own the book, or do I have it at hand, but as I know: Lumiya and Luke speak, Lumiya tells him he could have killed her at any time, and Luke says he could and he'll hear her out.

So, Caedus is ranked where, then? Top 3, 5?

In what? Combat ability?

I'd put several people over him. Luke, Palpatine, Yoda, and Bane for sure, and Mace, Kyp Durron, and Exar Kun are distinct possibilities, the latter two only on account of their prodigious ability with the Force.

However, certain ancient Sith should definitely be looked at. Freedon Nadd, for one, was said to have learned under the then seven-hundred year-old Naga Sadow for a time before presumably killing him - so his knowledge base and experience would outstrip Exar Kun's one year with Sadow's notes.

"Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side. As his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed all his knowledge and teachings, transferring them into the Holocron before murdering Sadow and taking his place."

Darth Bane also noted that despite having the formidable build and stature of a waaior, his body looked like it had been ravaged by the power that he wielded.

"Though Nadd had been human, his avatar was the image of a man who had succumbed to the physical corruption that sometimes affected those who delved too deeply into the power of the dark side. His skin was pallid, the flesh withered and sunken, and his eyes were glowing yellow orbs devoid of iris or pupil. Despite this, he still appeared as a formidable warrior: broad-shouldered, clad in heavy battle armor and the helm that had doubled as his crown when he had proclaimed himself king over the nearby world of Onderon."

Even in death, apparently, the dark side clung to his remains and formed a sort of point of concentration around which things simply died.

"Even the plants and trees bordering the clearing were stunted and deformed, corrupted by the dark side power that clung to the remains of the great Sith Master in death."

So really, I think we should be as impressed with Nadd as we are with Kun, if not moreso, although that's a topic for another time. Naga Sadow himself is also a person of interest here, and appears to be quite powerful himself.

this is caedus reflecting on his fight with luke. Inferno, pg. 266:
"Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffereed himself, and he had even escaped the garrote before ben struck. In fact, it was probably that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage--only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side." It was a memory that both frightened Caedus and burned his pride, but it was one that he would have to contemplate at length."

Caedus knew that he didn't really give luke a run for his money, that it was a losing fight all along. You also can't say he was taken by surprise. I mean, right up until luke attacked, ben was sitting there telling caedus that luke was coming to attack him. I mean, caedus WAS warned, not Luke's fault he was still as surprised as he was.

This sounds interesting indeed, but I feel that I shall merely observe.

Yes, I meant where did he rank overall.

Hmm... In terms of what, would you put Yoda, Luke, Palpatine, etc. above Caedus? Obviously Luke is above, I don't need any explanation for that.

The Ancient Sith definitely need to be looked at.

Well, what's been decided on Luke? I don't really understand where this ends and the next effort begins.

Also, I'm gonna pass on Palpatine. I'm a little sick of hearing of him, but I'll help out with Vader and whoever comes after, preferably the ancient Sith.

well, we've established a base of power for luke (the very powerful base) but a hiarchy is really all about comparing someone with someone else (bubble sorting, is a>b? the replace a with b, is b>c? and so on) All we have accomplished so far, is that luke IS powerful. how powerful in terms of ranking? we need to look at others to decide that. how about after each successive discussion, we rank the characters we have discussed so far, and make sure a consensus is reached?

i dunno we went from how luke during his fight to shimirra in TUF was him not holding back any more to gideon saying

"Again, I wouldn't say that. Skywalker was critically injured by Solo during their duel. He displays superiority in Force aptitude in mastery, but Solo can challenge and severely injure him in a lightsaber contest."

and from there we went staright into jacen and lukes encounters with each other in LOTF along with luke and lumiyas battles in LOTF.

@truejedi that sounds good i agree

Originally posted by Gideon

I didn't say that Caedus could have fought it off. I said that he might of, had he been prepared. Skywalker "took him by surprise" and that is the end of it.

the type of attack and luke's ability to use it on him took him by surprise, yes, but Caedus was expecting Luke, felt him coming from floors away, and half believed he was about to fight the duel against Luke he had been expecting for quite some time. He even sat at his desk in order to use his traps if necessary. He was as ready as anyone is EVER going to be in a fight.

Originally posted by Gideon
I didn't say that Caedus could have fought it off. I said that he might of, had he been prepared. Skywalker "took him by surprise" and that is the end of it.

Plus, there's this little gem which truejedi reminded me of:

"Caedus was glad to see Luke's lightsaber still hanging from its belt clip, but he took the precaution of slipping toward his desk, where he would have access to a dozen weapons and traps he had prepared in anticipation of just such a confrontation."

He was ready. He was waiting. Just like Yoda was when he walked in and confronted Palpatine. Just like those three Jedi Masters were when Palpatine jumped up and owned the shit out of them.

The fact that Jacen was "surprised" means absolutely nothing here, and is not at all valid reasoning to suggest he may have somehow been able to defend against the Force-grip.

Originally posted by Faunus
Well then, that logic takes all credit away from Sidious frying just about everyone; you think Yoda, Mace, Starkiller, the three dark acolytes, Luke, and the two Jedi he destroyed just before getting shot by Han were all expecting burst of Force-lightning to come and do bad things to them? That's right, you agree that they were all surprised. Does that take away from Palpatine's feats on any level? No. And see, unlike Yoda or Mace, Caedus had never displayed Force-ability remotely near where it would need to be to fend off an assault from his respective "pwner."

Plus, there's this little gem which truejedi reminded me of:

"Caedus was glad to see Luke's lightsaber still hanging from its belt clip, but he took the precaution of slipping toward his desk, where he would have access to a dozen weapons and traps he had prepared in anticipation of just such a confrontation."

He was ready. He was waiting. Just like Yoda was when he walked in and confronted Palpatine. Just like those three Jedi Masters were when Palpatine jumped up and owned the shit out of them.

The fact that Jacen was "surprised" means absolutely nothing here, and is not at all valid reasoning to suggest he may have somehow been able to defend against the Force-grip.

i'm thinking the quote referring to Caedus's surprise was referring to his surprise that luke had been able to do that to him, NOT surprise that had been attacked.

and while we're quoting, i really like this one from the page after faunus's quote above: Luke has just released Jacen, we get this:

"Moving very slowly so his uncle would not misinterpret his actions as an attack, Caedus stood"

Caedus knew who his daddy was, that's for sure.