Project Holocron

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I found out something interesting, it seems like certain parts of the TFU novel and comic contradict one another, vader pwning kota is for one, while paratus is missing from the comic.

Their absence isn't necessarily a contradiction

And the most interesting part was that the novel states that marek blew himself up which destroyed part of the death star, while the comic showed that palpatines lightning became too large and too intense for marek to fully absorb/block and then a massive explosion occurs.

Again, no contradiction. Nothing suggests that it was just Palpatine's Force lightning. We simply don't have Marek's internal narrative to say what he decided to do, since the story is being narrated by a spectator in the comic.

Luke's relative power cannot truly be looked at until we discuss the others tho.. who is he being compared to? surely the same conclusion that we came to with luke , that he COULD lose battles, would also be true of every other character He still is the favorite, comparable only to the very top tier fighters (DE sidious, yoda, etc). Just as he COULD lose, it is also, by our own discussion, most likely that he would not, in any stand up, knock down fight. was it that you were trying to disprove that luke could, without the slightest effort destroy all others? because that was never believed in the first place anyway, i don't think.

Originally posted by Gideon
Precisely, Lieutenant.

But as per the purpose of this thread, we are to address discrepencies and put them into proper perspective as well. Consider that post-Dark Empire, he was quite handily defeated by the spirit of Exar Kun. In Jedi Knight II, he was defeated by Desann in single combat. Just prior to the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, Luke and Mara Jade Skywalker stumbled upon the remnants of the ill-fated Outbound Flight, where he came across a slightly modified Trade Federation-era droideka. Despite having assistance from the considerably talented Emperor's Hand, the droid succeeded in challenging him. How is this so? These discrepencies cannot be ignored.

Galen Marek was capable of obliterating massive amounts of Imperial personnel and heavy weaponry rather casually, numerous times throughout the Force Unleashed and used the Force to redirect a falling Star Destroyer, which is -- to me -- far more impressive than Skywalker's dealing with Shimrra's elite (with assistance). Yet look at what happened to him: he was initially outmatched by General Kota (a Jedi capable of casually resisting Force lightning and emitting telekinesis on a level that it all but destroyed a massive orbital factory), nearly killed by Shaak Ti, and nearly killed by Darth Vader (who in turn was capable of casually stopping General Kota). Is he impressive? Certainly. Depending on what source you look at, he was capable of tanking a pissed off Palpatine's Force lightning for a given amount of time and managed to make the Emperor "cry out in lascivious pain" or telekinetically hurl him into the ceiling of his observation dome and then electrocuting him, though it seemed obvious that the Emperor wasn't attacking to his greatest extent, nothing suggests he was allowing Marek to embarrass him like that. Still, despite his impressive feats, he's hardly invulerable and was handily defeated by individuals such as Kota and Shaak Ti who were nowhere near his equal in Force mastery or raw potency. Hell, the comic depicts one of the Emperor's Shadow Guard giving him an assbeating. And this is an individual who, in some ways, emits feats in excess of Skywalker as of NJO.

The point is that Skywalker is not infallible. In Legacy of the Force, despite the ferocity and great strength he demonstrates in Dark Nest and The Unifying Force, he was nearly destroyed by Lumiya, who (while being an immeasurably cunning fighter) is certainly, by no means, a rival of Luke in terms of Force use. How would he do against someone like Darth Bane, who is cunning and armed with orbalisks? Or, heaven help him, Palpatine, who not only has a greater mastery of the Force than Skywalker but is lightyears more cunning and brilliant (it was he who trained Lumiya).

well I dunno about you but Luke has Always Since ROTJ tried bringing people back to the light side. he did with vader.

when he fights dessan i'm quite sure that he wasn't trying to kill him but bring him back to the LS thats why after he gets out of the rubble he looks down and shakes his head not in defeat but in disappointment that he couldn't bring him back. But i guess you could say that he was beaten but luke was surely not TRYING to kill desann.

the same goes for lumiya in his encounters with her in LOTF. If I remember correctly as soon as luke decided to just kill lumiya the fight sequence wasn't very long like what 2 or 3 pages long? the fight in universe must have been like 5 minutes tops. I will go re read it though my memory may be scewed.

as for the droideka and the force unleashed I think those are author mistakes i mean ya what they right is considered cannon but they are human and i think that just because one author makes it really hard for luke to beat a droid and the another makes him uber like in TUF doesn't necessarily mean that they painted an accurate account of how powerful luke is.

it's our job as the reader to use discretion and deductive reasoning to figure out which authors portray an accurate character be it luke, han, vader, or anyone. That's why GL says there are 3 worlds his world the EU and what happens in our(the fans) minds.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
well I dunno about you but Luke has Always Since ROTJ tried bringing people back to the light side. he did with vader.

when he fights dessan i'm quite sure that he wasn't trying to kill him but bring him back to the LS thats why after he gets out of the rubble he looks down and shakes his head not in defeat but in disappointment that he couldn't bring him back.

as for the droideka and the force unleashed I think those are author mistakes i mean ya what they right is considered cannon but they are human and i think that just because one author makes it really hard for luke to beat a droid and the another makes him uber like in TUF doesn't necessarily mean that they painted an accurate account of how powerful luke is.

it's our job as the reader to use discretion and deductive reasoning to figure out which authors portray an accurate character be it luke, han, vader, or anyone. That's why GL says there are 3 worlds his world the EU and what happens in our(the fans) minds.

Wasn't the droideka incident before the Vong Invasion? If so, you can attribute Luke's power increase to his experience in the war.

i think i didn't communicated what i wanted to the right way.

this might help.

if an author depicts luke, lets say 1 year after LOTF, as someone who can hardly defeat a YVH droid does that mean that he actually has a hard time beating a YVH droid? or is it possible that the author screwed up?

I think we as the readers full well know that luke could just destroy the YVH droid with ease. especially by LOTF.

You'd have to question the validity of the rest of the author's writing in that case, casting his control over canon into question.

You defy Publius's teachings.

http://www.domuspublica.net/on_methodology.html

Originally posted by Publius
Contradiction – that is, the mutual exclusivity of facts, where one fact cannot be true if the other is – is unhesitatingly
resolved in favor of the films, at all times. Consequently, when the claims of two pieces of secondary evidence (i.e.,
evidence other than the films) cannot be reconciled, the claim that better portrays the reality seen in the films takes
precedence.

The most obvious example of this is the various claimed lengths overall of Darth Vader’s command ship, HIMS
Executor. For many years she was said to be five times the length of the commoner Imperial Star Destroyer (i.e., 8
kilometers), despite the clear visual evidence of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi that she was at least
eleven times as long. In the event, this particular error was corrected, and the official length is now said to be 19
kilometers. This in turn raises another question: Is the correct length of ‘greater than 11 times the length’ only ‘valid’
because it has been published officially?

Mature reflection assures us that this is not so. In the first place, consider ‘Rostoni’s Law’:

Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the
official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar
as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas’s Star Wars saga of films and
screenplays. [quoted in Star Wars Gamer no. 6]

Here one sees that the canonical history of Star Wars is ‘authentic’ provided that it does not contradict the films; to
wit, evidence that contradicts the films is not evidence. When the Expanded Universe secondary sources advanced
claims that the Executor was 8 kilometers long, they contradicted the films, and as a result never had any evidential
weight when it came to the length of the ship. An official correction was unnecessary; the films automatically
overruled the incorrect figure.

How does one approach these contradictions? Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker has eight officers
and Senators in the Death Star’s conference room before the arrival of Tarkin and Vader; A New Hope has only six. In
the former, High General Cassio Tagge vocally criticizes Vader and faces the Sith Lord’s invisible, intangible
chastisement; in the latter, it is Rear Admiral Motti (who has only a non-speaking appearance in the novelization, in a
subsequent scene). It is not possible for both versions to be true; therefore there were only six present and Vader
strangled Motti, not Tagge.

It is fallacious to extend this nullification of evidence to the entire source.

I think it's about time somebody got excused from this little project.

Like for me I've yet to study Publius' teachings.

Edited. Never mind, I just read his arguments regarding Sion.

Originally posted by truejedi
Luke's relative power cannot truly be looked at until we discuss the others tho.. who is he being compared to? surely the same conclusion that we came to with luke , that he COULD lose battles, would also be true of every other character He still is the favorite, comparable only to the very top tier fighters (DE sidious, yoda, etc). Just as he COULD lose, it is also, by our own discussion, most likely that he would not, in any stand up, knock down fight. was it that you were trying to disprove that luke could, without the slightest effort destroy all others? because that was never believed in the first place anyway, i don't think.

What I am doing is trying to lift the delusion that the likes of Skywalker and the Emperor are completely without peer. Both of them have certain things in common regarding combat prowess and Force aptitude. The difference is that Skywalker's state of power has fluctuated ever since Dark Empire. In Jedi Academy, he was defeated by the efforts of the spirit of Exar Kun and Kyp Durron; he was defeated by Desann in Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast; he was nearly defeated by a droideka in Survivor's Quest; he was nearly killed by Lord Nyax in Rebel Dream; he was nearly killed by Lumiya in Tempest; he was injured by Jacen Solo in Inferno. The man is hardly infallible.

The purpose of this thread is to give an accurate depiction of characters and their abilities without aggrandizement or assumptions. If there is an inconsistency concerning a character, I'd like to try to find a reason for it. And in TUF, Luke confirms that he fears drawing on most of his raw power due to his insecurities regarding the dark side of the Force. Hence why his moments as a veritable force of nature are few and far between.

His battle with Lumiya is also one of interest. Though it is apparent that she is neither his equal in Force strength or in skills with a lightsaber, he was outmatched by her in their duel. Why? Because she is a trained fighter and killer, her skills as a combatant far exceed his own. Hence why Mara Jade was also able to dominate someone more powerful than herself: Jacen Solo, though she his equal in neither category. Training and mentality helps, and as it stands, Lumiya and Mara Jade are dangerous even to the likes of Luke and Jacen because they are simply better trained and far more intelligent fighters.

Edit: Though I'd like to make it clear that I'm not suggesting that they compare in terms of swordsmanship or Force strength. They don't. They're not close.

Originally posted by Gideon
The difference is that Skywalker's state of power has fluctuated ever since Dark Empire. In Jedi Academy, he was defeated by the efforts of the spirit of Exar Kun and Kyp Durron; he was defeated by Desann in Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast; he was nearly defeated by a droideka in Survivor's Quest; he was nearly killed by Lord Nyax in Rebel Dream; he was nearly killed by Lumiya in Tempest; he was injured by Jacen Solo in Inferno. The man is hardly infallible.

The only fight that doesn't make sense is the one with the droideka, and that should be chalked up to an author's error.

The purpose of this thread is to give an accurate depiction of characters and their abilities without aggrandizement or assumptions. If there is an inconsistency concerning a character, I'd like to try to find a reason for it.

Again, so that you don't somehow misconstrue my meaning: I do agree that Luke is not infallible; that much is painfully obvious. And I agree that some of the fluctuations in power can be explained through his inherent insecurities.

But you are seemingly desperate to find some way to just downplay his accomplishments or mark them off as "deus ex machina," as you put it. Despite what - according to you - what Publius says, not every bit of information is put in there as a "piece of the puzzle." Some aspects of Star Wars are just stupid. I mean, why didn't Yoda just push Anakin and Obi-Wan out of the way of the falling pillar in AotC, instead of taking precious time to stop the damn thing and move it out of the way? Was it a moral thing?

Truth is, there is no good excuse. We chalk it up to PIS.

Downplay him? I disagree. Are you downplaying the Emperor's achievements by suggesting that Count Dooku is a more accomplished master of telekinesis? I don't think so, but it's essentially the same thing. That Skywalker is a master combatant and arguably the greatest ever (a point I can concede as of LotF) doesn't mean he is infallible, even within the context of a duel. He has been critically injured by a foe who bested him through vastly superior skills at fighting and manipulation of the environment.

You yourself agreed with my theory regarding Skywalker's insecurities. TUF confirms it:

I went back through the Unifying Force and, from pages 264 to 267, Jacen Solo and Luke Skywalker converse about the duality of the Force. Skywalker all but confirms my two theories:

a.) Luke Skywalker remains haunted from his brief tenure as an agent of the Sith.

[QUOTE]When he stood at the side of the cloned Emperor, he had truly felt the dark side. Ever since, he had come to equate anger with darkness itself, and passed that along to the Jedi he tutored.

-- The Unifying Force, page 264

b.) Skywalker's insecurities prevent him from "unleashing" himself.

The dark side has, in some ways, dominated my life. I've long suspected that the fatigue I've sometimes experienced when drawing on the Force during combat owes to my fear of abusing the 'raw power' you describe.

-- The Unifying Force, page 265

I feel that we have almost concluded Skywalker's relative power and, unless anything else can be offered, we may begin our final conclusions.[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Tangible God
You'd have to question the validity of the rest of the author's writing in that case, casting his control over canon into question.

exactly and I think that Faunus said it best just a few posts up when he talks about inconsistencies.

You yourself agreed with my theory regarding Skywalker's insecurities. TUF confirms it:

Again, Yoda in AotC. How does that make sense?

The only way it works is through suspension of disbelief by the reader/viewer and acknowledgement of the workings of PIS.

Of course, not everything in the saga has an explanation. But that isn't the issue. You (not I) are making this more about the droideka incident. I've simply listed it as one of many examples of Luke not being as cosmic as people say he is. He is fallible and he is insecure and it impacts his performance in combat. That is the issue and that has been proven.

We can move on.

is he the only character we have to move off a pedastel to give them all context? i would pick DE sidious as another example of an overhyped character.

One other question: when comparing these characters, do we take into account the discrepancy between different kinds of canon? Comic books, and cartoons have a completely different level of achievements in them than movies or novels. (movies with the lowest level, IMO) A character completely in the comic books, or the cartoons would therefore seemingly have an insane power edge over a character who appeared only in one of the Saga movies. Do we consider this when ranking their accomplishements?

Originally posted by truejedi
One other question: when comparing these characters, do we take into account the discrepancy between different kinds of canon? Comic books, and cartoons have a completely different level of achievements in them than movies or novels. (movies with the lowest level, IMO) A character completely in the comic books, or the cartoons would therefore seemingly have an insane power edge over a character who appeared only in one of the Saga movies. Do we consider this when ranking their accomplishements?

A very good question. I would say that the answer would be no. Consider the awe-inspiring feats of General Rahm Kota. He was able to casually deflect Sith lightning as delivered by Starkiller, but also redirected the psuedo-Sith's telekinesis at whim. Moreover, he was also capable of using the Force on such a massive, reactive scale that it sent the TIE Fighter Construction facility into critical condition. However, it is implied by Lord Vader that Kota himself was no match for Shaak Ti, a Council member. While I'd hesitate to say that all or most of the PT Jedi are superior to Kota, I would imagine that most of the Council was by a good tier or two. In the movies, Windu and Palpatine display an alarming level of slowness in their duel. Does that mean that they are slow? No. In fact, both of them are lauded for prowess and speed.

We simply need to take everything into consideration. I would now like to have final assessments of Luke Skywalker from everyone who wishes to speak on what level they'd place him.

Well, i would still put him at the top of the charts. I assume we are going to rank his LOTF incarnation for the official rankings? I will admit he COULD lose. Just as Sidious COULD HAVE lost to Galen if Sidious had hit his head when thrown across the room and been knocked unconcious. But he probably wouldn't lose, regardless of the opponent. Now when you start ganging him up against multiple opponents, that changes quickly, but i would still put him on top.

However, if ONE person disagrees with Luke being on top, we would really need to discuss the character they propose be above him before we can put Luke on top. I would propose, that of this moment, luke goes to the top of our discussed list by default, (only one we've discussed) then we can re-rank him after the second character, and consider only the both of them, and so on until all characters are ranked. It is unfair to go ahead and give luke a rank when only HIS strengths and weaknesses have been brought to recent and detailed light.

Originally posted by truejedi
Well, i would still put him at the top of the charts. I assume we are going to rank his LOTF incarnation for the official rankings? I will admit he COULD lose. Just as Sidious COULD HAVE lost to Galen if Sidious had hit his head when thrown across the room and been knocked unconcious. But he probably wouldn't lose, regardless of the opponent. Now when you start ganging him up against multiple opponents, that changes quickly, but i would still put him on top.

However, if ONE person disagrees with Luke being on top, we would really need to discuss the character they propose be above him before we can put Luke on top. I would propose, that of this moment, luke goes to the top of our discussed list by default, (only one we've discussed) then we can re-rank him after the second character, and consider only the both of them, and so on until all characters are ranked. It is unfair to go ahead and give luke a rank when only HIS strengths and weaknesses have been brought to recent and detailed light.

So, time for Palpatine's assessment?

I spent so long trying to edit my post that i couldn't anymore, so...: Here's about half of what i meant to post. (put this between the two paragraphs and you get what i meant to say...)

My final assessment of him would be: Nearly limitless potential, and fighting ability when unleashed, seems to hold himself in check much of the time, so that ability does not come through. He came into that ability between the JA series, (being stalemated by desann) and the beginning of NJO, continued to progress up until his KNOWN "coming out" in TUF, and has increased in ability almost exponentially throughout Dark nest, and LOTF. He is now to the point of peerlessness in the CURRENT star wars universe that authors decline to let him clean up the messes anymore, starting with TUF, and continuing through LOTF. (Though he was the combatant who defeated Raynar Thul (without showing too much effort, if i may remind everyone)
We obviously DON'T know the extent of his force knowledge, though it is doubtful he knows as much as the masters of old, who were actually taught it, it is possible he knows much that they never did. Remember, they thought of the shatterpoint ability as a "Gift" (in Shatterpoint) while Luke has learned it is a taught skill that he taught to Jaina in an afternoon. The author's also hint there is much we don't know about his knowledge when they show Jaina's surprise at what he can do. They never explain exactly HOW he disappeared from the force, convincing everyone he was dead, remember, the Jedi knew when someone had just left the force,(Ben, Mara, Jacen, etc) what Luke did was different (Even Jacen thought he was dead, even Leia, his twin)
They never explain his force illusions that so badly misled Jacen( NEVER seen before, by ANYONE in the star wars universe) (i'm talking about his rewriting Jacen's visions to be whatever luke wanted him to see) So luke's force Knowledge is at least ON-PAR with ANY KNOWN knowledge, though it may not be the same knowledge possessed by the ancient sith and jedi. Different is not necessarily less.
I'll point out again that luke is the only top tier force user we still have who is currently undefeated. Every one of the ancient sith, and jedi were ultimately killed by SOMEBODY. (or yoda, defeated, forced to retreat) So the force is obviously with Skywalker, who plants himself in the middle of Galatic Conflict after Galactic conflict, probably more such harm way than any known force user in the entire history of the galaxy.
(the only way you'll change my mind on that is if you can count up more conflicts for some other character than there have been for luke, and you won't. Now you might say its because he's the main character, so the author's are biased. That won't matter, because what the author's say is canon, whether it is fair or not.)

So in conclusion: I would give Luke the top rank in the star wars universe, at the end of LOTF by a decent margin. That margin can be discussed fairly only after discussing other characters however.