Originally posted by sithsaber408
No I want children not born to be called humans worth protecting, and like Sarah Palin (whose comments you take out of context), I hope and pray and ask others to pray that the war in Iraq is God's will.
So then you agree with her decision to criminalise abortion in cases of rape and incest too, or not?
She said the soldier's are doing God's task, how much can you take a comment like that out of context? That's the same shit Bin Laden feeds to his troops. How is Palin different? You believe it's ok to go to war on religious basis, despite the fact that a lot of soldiers do not believe in God, probably?
Stop dodging.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
She said, 'Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's will.'She didn't say, "IT IS THE WILL OF GOD!"... she said to pray that our country and leaders are sending them on God's will.(i.e, pray that they are doing the right thing) We have to pray that there is a plan and that it's God's plan.
A bit different, but nice try.
I said she called it God's will, she did call it God's will. What are you talking about? It's the same thing in any case.
You say she didn't say; "It is the will of God!", but said; "It's God's will.", where's the difference? You're saying she didn't make a comment as crazed and insane that it would translate into caps lock and exclamation marks, just to overshadow the fact that she did make an extreme comment.
What's your issue? That's bullshit. She's doing the same shit that your current government is criticising as a threat to the "free world". Invading countries and attacking them because you believe God wants you to.
Do you not see how dangerous and hypocritical that is, or are you just ignoring it because you feel you have to support anything that is Republican?
You support invading countries and using military might, under the premise that it's God's will, despite the fact that not everyone is religious? Despite the fact that a lot of these soldiers are undoubtedly not religious?
She asks you to pray for troops that probably wouldn't be there if there wasn't a religious man in office. They wouldn't need prayer if they weren't there because of religion in the first place.
If anything, what Sarah Palin is saying is even WORSE. "Let's do this, and just hope our God agrees with it.". If you're gonna indulge war and death under the idea it's what your god wants, make sure it is what he wants.
She's an idiot, and so is absolutely anybody supporting her, without exception.
-AC
You missed it AC: She said to pray that the leaders were sending them out on God's will, NOT that they for sure were doing God's will.
I don't pray for something to be so if I already believe it is. She was addressing Christians in a church, trust me that I'm more qualified than you to understand her meaning.
When she asks people to pray for the troops and pray for the leaders of the country to do God's will, then FURTHER goes on to say that Christians have to make sure that's what they pray for and that it's in fact God's will and that there is a plan, that hardly counts as her saying that the war is the will of God.
Rather, she's hoping it is (otherwise we're in the wrong), praying that it is, praying for the leaders, and praying that there is a plan and that it's God's plan.
Again, a big difference from saying that the war in Iraq "is the will of the Lord."
Originally posted by sithsaber408
You missed it AC: She said to pray that the leaders were sending them out on God's will, NOT that they for sure were doing God's will.I don't pray for something to be so if I already believe it is. She was addressing Christians in a church, trust me that I'm more qualified than you to understand her meaning.
Stop dodging my point, you coward. If you don't have enough strength as an individual to call bullshit on fighting wars under God's will, then fine, but admit it.
Do you believe it's proper ethics to invade a country or wage war based on God's will, yes or no?
Bear in mind, this is something Bush currently slams terrorist groups for. Also bear in mind that the people your leaders are subjecting to religious warmongering may not even be religious. Do you consider that fair?
What happened to the separation of church and state? You feel everyone should be united, FORCED to be united under your God?
Originally posted by sithsaber408
When she asks people to pray for the troops and pray for the leaders of the country to do God's will, then FURTHER goes on to say that Christians have to make sure that's what they pray for and that it's in fact God's will and that there is a plan, that hardly counts as her saying that the war is the will of God.
But she said she hopes it is, and that's why she'd be doing it. She's supporting it under the premise that it's God's will. God is subjective, it's not a fact.
It's wrong to invade countries or wage war based on God, or to let your SUBJECTIVE BELIEF inform your OBJECTIVE policy. Do you believe people who do not believe in God should be forced to do things by someone who does?
Yes or no?
You don't believe atheists should force their beliefs on you, so why do you support the opposite?
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Rather, she's hoping it is (otherwise we're in the wrong), praying that it is, praying for the leaders, and praying that there is a plan and that it's God's plan.
So what? God isn't going to confirm the details any time soon, if he exists, so how about not doing things based on the belief you PERSONALLY chose? Not everyone is religious. What part of that is hard for you to grasp?
Originally posted by sithsaber408
Again, a big difference from saying that the war in Iraq "is the will of the Lord."
You're just weaselling out. She believes it's God's will and you know it.
You didn't answer my question; do you believe women who want abortions, EVEN in rape and incest, are criminals?
For someone with unerring faith, you certainly don't have confidence in answering me.
-AC
For the last time:
She is praying and hoping that it is God's will, not saying it is from the get-go.
She's a Christian woman addressing a Christian church who believes as she does and she's asking them to pray that God's will is being done there. Asking them to pray that the leaders have a plan, and that it's God's plan being done, not man's.
That may not mean a hill of beans to you and that's fine, but she wasn't out of line nor suggesting that the US is "on a mission from God" in Iraq.
She hopes and prays that it was the right thing, like many of us!
I answered you on abortion: I want unborn children protected. I believe that every abortion is the loss of human life. Whether they were created by rape or incest (which is less than 1% of the time, so let's just call it what it is: a red herring) doesn't make them less human.
Personally, I understand why a woman might want to have an abortion if she was raped (incest is a dumb reason, because that's consenual sex), but also know that there are many women who keep the child and either raise them or give them up for adoption because they don't want to turn 1 tragedy into 2.
It's a difficult issue, and while any abortion is the loss of human life (to me), I can understand the rape side of it.
But that doesn't mean that I disagree with Palin either. She's taking that position to it's logical end: if all human life is valued, then it should be protected no matter how it got here.
Again, being that only 1% of rape ends in a pregnancy, it's a moot point.
AC, I assume you know the English language decently. And you do know that 'hoping' it is God's will has an entirely different meaning than 'saying', explicitly, that the war is God's will.
Originally posted by AC
But she said she hopes it is, and that's why she'd be doing it. She's supporting it under the premise that it's God's will. God is subjective, it's not a fact.
It's her belief that God exists. Just as it is your belief that She doesn't. The word 'hope', by definition, implies uncertainty.
Originally posted by AC
It's wrong to invade countries or wage war based on God
Says who? You? Who don't believe in a God in the first place. That opinion of yours is exactly that - opinion. And based purely on speculation.
Originally posted by AC
You didn't answer my question; do you believe women who want abortions, EVEN in rape and incest, are criminals?
This wasn't directed at me, but I'd just like to point out - there are orphanages. The only time it should be allowed, in my opinion, is when it threatens the mother's health or when the child is going to be born with an illness or retardation.
Not a moot point for those 1% who are actually raped.
And incest isn't always consensual. It is often a father sexually abusing his daughter who is too young to give consent.
And good god what do orphanages have to do with anything? Being against it in cases of rape has nothing to do with adoption, it simply has to do with the mental anguish it would cause the mother to see a part of her rapist growing inside of her for 9 months.
And it is wrong to wage war based on God. If not, then the terrorists are in the right.
Originally posted by Enyalus
A morally decent person would call killing a potential human being, who is completely defenseless and at the mercy of their mother to be mentally anguishing.
And it is maybe.
Doesn't mean it's more anguishing than seeing a piece of your rapist growing inside you - being reminded of the rape every time you look in the mirror. No one said that they'd come to the conclusion easily or trivially. But it's an exception that even most fair-minded pro-lifers would agree is understandable.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
For the last time:She is praying and hoping that it is God's will, not saying it is from the get-go.
If that's what you want to make yourself believe, great.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
She's a Christian woman addressing a Christian church who believes as she does and she's asking them to pray that God's will is being done there. Asking them to pray that the leaders have a plan, and that it's God's plan being done, not man's.
The leaders should not be acting in God's will, though. I am NOT against religious people in office, I'm against religion informing policy. If Bush, Palin, McCain etc could keep their beliefs out of office, I would probably not hate them as much.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
That may not mean a hill of beans to you and that's fine, but she wasn't out of line nor suggesting that the US is "on a mission from God" in Iraq.
She absolutely is out of line for saying that. There's no place for religion in objective politics, because it applies to non-religious too.
Originally posted by sithsaber408
I answered you on abortion: I want unborn children protected. I believe that every abortion is the loss of human life. Whether they were created by rape or incest (which is less than 1% of the time, so let's just call it what it is: a red herring) doesn't make them less human.Personally, I understand why a woman might want to have an abortion if she was raped (incest is a dumb reason, because that's consenual sex), but also know that there are many women who keep the child and either raise them or give them up for adoption because they don't want to turn 1 tragedy into 2.
It's a difficult issue, and while any abortion is the loss of human life (to me), I can understand the rape side of it.
But that doesn't mean that I disagree with Palin either. She's taking that position to it's logical end: if all human life is valued, then it should be protected no matter how it got here.
Again, being that only 1% of rape ends in a pregnancy, it's a moot point.
Stop being a wuss and answer my question.
Do you think abortion should be treated as she's treating it, or not? If you had a 14 year old daughter who was pregnant via rape, you'd force her to keep it?
Originally posted by Enyalus
It's her belief that God exists. Just as it is your belief that She doesn't. The word 'hope', by definition, implies uncertainty.
So she should not be imposing her religious, CHOSEN beliefs on the non-religious.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Says who? You? Who don't believe in a God in the first place. That opinion of yours is exactly that - opinion. And based purely on speculation.
Because when you are accusing terrorists of being bad for doing the same thing, you certainly shouldn't be.
Furthermore, when the troops in your power have a percentage that are not religious and do not believe in your God, you should not be sending them to fight and die in a war based on subjective belief. These are people who claim to value human life. The Iraq death toll is a smack in the religious right's face.
Originally posted by Enyalus
This wasn't directed at me, but I'd just like to point out - there are orphanages. The only time it should be allowed, in my opinion, is when it threatens the mother's health or when the child is going to be born with an illness or retardation.
Are your kind allergic to straight answers?
So you believe rape-born pregnancy should be carried through? I hope you have a young daughter, and I hope she endures rape-pregnancy, and when she's begging you to let her get rid of the abomination in her womb, her daddy, the guy who is meant to PROTECT her from evil in the world, can say "No, sweetie.".
Originally posted by Enyalus
A morally decent person would call killing a potential human being, who is completely defenseless and at the mercy of their mother to be mentally anguishing.
A morally (Subjective) decent person would recognise female rights and not make such abominable statements as "Abortion should be completely illegal unless it endangers the mother's life.".
Typical Republican/Religious short-sightedness. "WE'RE FOR RIGHTS OF THE FOETUS! BUT WHEN SHE GROWS UP, SHE CAN GO TO HELL IF SHE WANTS AN ABORTION!".
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
...The leaders should not be acting in God's will, though. I am NOT against religious people in office, I'm against religion informing policy. If Bush, Palin, McCain etc could keep their beliefs out of office, I would probably not hate them as much...
The "they are religious" argument has no weight in this election. Obama is also a Christian, so what is the difference? He will apply some aspect of his religious beliefs to policy just like any other Christian.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And that's wrong.The difference between applying some and making women criminals for having abortion is vast.
If you don't see it, you're beyond help.
-AC
There is no evidence for your accusation. You are assuming that she will do that. Now, Obama believes some guy named Jesus rose from the dead and is alive today. Should I make some assumption that he will legislate based on that belief?
Originally posted by AC
So she should not be imposing her religious, CHOSEN beliefs on the non-religious.
She wasn't. She was speaking at a church! This is a free country, you are allowed to say what you think.
Originally posted by AC
Because when you are accusing terrorists of being bad for doing the same thing, you certainly shouldn't be.
Well, I personally was not. Any war based on doing it as the will of God or hoping that it is, to me, is stupid. Stupid, but not necessarily wrong. The two are very different, and who am I to say, definitively, that it is in fact incorrect?
Originally posted by AC
Are your kind allergic to straight answers?So you believe rape-born pregnancy should be carried through?
I gave you a straight answer after my first sentence. Yes, I do. There is adoption if she does not want it afterwards. Simply because you are dealing with something rough in your life, does not give you a magical license to wave it away. Imagine if all of life's problems were dealt with in such a manner.
So we're clear, I think rapists deserve the death penalty, so I'm not just being hard on the victim here.
Originally posted by BackFire
And it is maybe.Doesn't mean it's more anguishing than seeing a piece of your rapist growing inside you - being reminded of the rape every time you look in the mirror. No one said that they'd come to the conclusion easily or trivially. But it's an exception that even most fair-minded pro-lifers would agree is understandable.
I can see that. But, life is tough. Deal with it. Compromise is for the weak. [/Personal Philosophy]
Or in this case, the logical.
It's not compromise anyways, it's a fair and humane exception based on both compassion and reason.
So we're clear, I think rapists deserve the death penalty, so I'm not just being hard on the victim here.
So it's okay to punish the victim of rape because you'd punish the rapist harder? Why punish the victim at all.
Doesn't really matter, thankfully your extremist and foolish view will never have any chance in hell of seeing the light of reality.
Originally posted by Enyalus
She wasn't. She was speaking at a church! This is a free country, you [b]are allowed to say what you think.[/b]
I'm speaking about the abortion thing, also.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Well, I personally was not. Any war based on doing it as the will of God or hoping that it is, to me, is stupid. Stupid, but not necessarily wrong. The two are very different, and who am I to say, definitively, that it is in fact incorrect?
I'm agnostic, so I'm not gonna say God factually is or isn't real. I hate smug, idiotic atheists as much as the direct opposite, but it remains subjective. Personal religion should not inform objective policy.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I gave you a straight answer after my first sentence. Yes, I do. There is adoption if she does not want it afterwards. Simply because you are dealing with something rough in your life, does not give you a magical license to wave it away. Imagine if all of life's problems were dealt with in such a manner.
Well, there'd be no more Republicans, for one.
Secondly, yes it does. Birth-given freedom gives you the right, advances in science give you the right. The only people trying to take it away are the religious, who do so under the subjective belief that God, the world's first foetus killer, dislikes it.
Originally posted by Enyalus
So we're clear, I think rapists deserve the death penalty, so I'm not just being hard on the victim here.
Oh, ok. So you're just very stupid. Then I can stop assuming there's a way to reach sense with you.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's clearly not.The man just said rapists deserve the death penalty. It's not an insult to call him stupid, it's an observation.
-AC
Did I misunderstand? Did you not just call Enyalus stupid?
Courtesy
Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack.