Chi and energy.

Started by Phantom Zone3 pages

Chi and energy.

Not sure where to put this really but since chi is usually associated with spirituality I thought I would put this here. Ive spoken about this video before. It shows monks wrapping themselves in cold towels in very cold envinronments and drying the towels with their body heat. It doesn't shows it straight away you will have to wait for a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjNVkPy-CEU&feature=related

I think this would be a good place to start with proof that chi exists. Its not simply about surviving the cold but its the fact that they actually managed to dry the towels, which implies they were actually able to generate energy. I am personally not suprised because I believe in chi, but if you are interested enough you could contact the people doing the research.

New Age Energy

Skeptoid #01
October 03, 2006
Podcast transcript

I'm feeling a little low today, so let's tap into a source of energy from a neighboring dimension as a quick upper.

Faith in pseudoscience is rampant. Everywhere you turn, intelligent people fully accept the existence of anything from psychic phenomena, to angels, to new age healing techniques, to ancient health schemes based on mysterious energy fields not understood by science. Most of these paranormal phenomena rely on "energy," and when the performers are asked to explain, they'll gladly lecture about the body's energy fields, the universe's energy fields, Chi, Prana, Orgone, negative energy, positive energy, and just about anything else that needs a familiar sounding word to explain and justify it. Clearly, there are too many loose interpretations of the word energy, to the point where most people probably have no idea exactly what energy really is.

I believe that if more people had a clear understanding of energy — and it's not complicated — there would be less susceptibility to pseudoscience, and more attention paid to actual technologies and methods that are truly constructive and useful.

A friend told me of her ability to perform minor healings, and her best explanation was that she drew energy from another dimension. She had recently rented What the Bleep Do We Know, so she was well prepared to explain that alternate dimensions and realities should be taken for granted, since science doesn't really know anything, and thus those things cannot be disproven. That's fine, I'll concede that she can make contact with another dimension: after all, the latest M theories posit that there are probably ten or eleven of them floating around, and I'll just hope that my friend's is not one of those that are collapsed into impossibly small spaces. What I was really interested in was the nature of this vaguely defined energy that she could contact.

I asked what type of energy is it, and how is it stored? Is it heat? Is it a spinning flywheel? Is it an explosive compound? Is it food? These are examples of actual ways that energy can be stored.

In popular New Age culture, "energy" has somehow become a noun unto itself. "Energy" is considered to be literally like a glowing, hovering, shimmering cloud, from which adepts can draw power, and feel rejuvenated. Imagine a vaporous creature from the original Star Trek series, and you'll have a good idea of what New Agers think energy is.

In fact, energy is not really a noun at all. Energy is a measurement of something's ability to perform work. Given this context, when spiritualists talk about your body's energy fields, they're really saying nothing that's even remotely meaningful. Yet this kind of talk has become so pervasive in our society that the vast majority of Americans accept that energy exists as a self-contained force, floating around in glowing clouds, and can be commanded by spiritualist adepts to do just about anything.

There is well known authority for the simple, concrete, scientific definition of energy. Take Einstein's equation, E=mc2, that every schoolchild knows but so few spend the 30 seconds it takes to understand. Energy equals mass times the speed of light squared. Simplify it. Mass can be expressed in grams, and speed can be expressed in meters per second. Thus, an object's energy equals the amount of work it takes to move a few grams a few meters in a few seconds. Energy is a measurement of work. If I lift a rock, I'm inputting enough potential energy to dent the surface of the table one centimeter when I drop it. The calories of chemical potential energy that my bloodstream absorbs when I eat a Power Bar charge up my muscles enough to dig two hundred pounds of dirt in my garden. Nowhere did Einstein discuss hovering glowing clouds, or fields of mystical power generated by human spirits.

When spiritualists discuss energy, don't blindly accept what they're saying simply because energy is a word you're familiar with, and that sounds scientific. In many cases, their usage of the word is meaningless. When you hear the word "energy" casually used to explain a mystical force or capability, require clarification. Require that the energy be defined. Is it heat? Is it a spinning flywheel?

Here's a good test. When you hear the word "energy" used in a spiritual or paranormal sense, substitute the phrase "measurable work capability." Does the usage still make sense? Are you actually being given any information that supports the claim being made? Remember, energy itself is not the thing being measured: energy is the measurement of work performed or of potential.

Take the following claim of Kundalini Yoga as an example: "The release and ascent of the dormant spiritual energy enables the aspirant to transcend the effects of the elements and achieve consciousness." This would be a great thing if energy was indeed that shimmering cloud that can go wherever it's needed and perform miracles. But it's not, so in this case, we substitute the phrase "measurable work capability" and find that the sentence is not attempting to measure or quantify anything other than the word "energy" itself. We have a "dormant spiritual measurable work capability," and no further information. That's pretty vague, isn't it? For this claim to have any merit, they must at least describe how this energy is being stored or manifested. Is it potential energy stored in the chemistry of fat cells? Is it heat that can spread through the body? Is it a measurable amount of electromagnetism, and if so, where's the magnet? In any event, it must be measurable and precisely quantifiable, or it can't be called energy, by definition.

There's a good reason why you don't hear medical doctors or pharmacists talking about energy fields: it's meaningless. I think it's generally good policy to remain open minded and be ready to hear claims that involve energy, but approach them skeptically, and scientifically. The next time you hear such a claim, substitute the phrase "measurable work capability" and you'll be well equipped to separate the silly from the solid.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4002

or, if you are convinced by a History Television documentary.... Why doesn't said researcher apply for this:

http://skeptoid.com/challenge.php

I looked for stuff on PubMed by Herbert Benson, the researcher mentioned in the film, and it reveals much about relaxation techniques, but noting about chi, and, as far as I can tell, the sheet drying has not been published in a journal.

EDIT: the closest thing that comes to this, from Benson's published work, appears to be behavioural treatment for infertillity and the psychological aspects of disease

also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha
one can never rule this out, especially given there are no replications. Researchers are not infallible.

unless their name is Jack Daniels...lol

kaaaaaameeeeeeehaaaaaameeeeeee...HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Originally posted by AngryManatee
kaaaaaameeeeeeehaaaaaameeeeeee...HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Dooooooodon PAAAAAAA!!!!!

😐

HADOUKEN

we use t think when they did that on dbz they were gonna pass gas...lol

Originally posted by inimalist
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4002

or, if you are convinced by a History Television documentary.... Why doesn't said researcher apply for this:

http://skeptoid.com/challenge.php [/B][/QUOTE]

Im not enitirely convinced but since ive experienced heat and other people have experienced heat when use chi im not suprised that people much better than me can dry towels. When I have time I will actually try and hunt this guy down and contact him.

Originally posted by inimalist
[
http://skeptoid.com/challenge.php

Why don't you ask him yourself.

Originally posted by inimalist
I looked for stuff on PubMed by Herbert Benson, the researcher mentioned in the film, and it reveals much about relaxation techniques, but noting about chi, and, as far as I can tell, the sheet drying has not been published in a journal.

EDIT: the closest thing that comes to this, from Benson's published work, appears to be behavioural treatment for infertillity and the psychological aspects of disease

also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha
one can never rule this out, especially given there are no replications. Researchers are not infallible.

Or maybe you can try and contact him yourself or Boston Universcity.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im not enitirely convinced but since ive experienced heat and other people have experienced heat when use chi im not suprised that people much better than me can dry towels. When I have time I will actually try and hunt this guy down and contact him.

that evidence is, at best, anecdotal.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Why don't you ask him yourself.

oh wonderful, start a discussion and then pass off any responsibility for responding to criticism

Originally posted by inimalist
oh wonderful, start a discussion and then pass off any responsibility for responding to criticism

Excuse me? What the hell are you talking about? Why the hell did you think I posted up the video in the first place?

I already told you even im not 100% convinced that its true but the point of posting the video is so that you can contact the people involved in the experiment, instead of me speculating what could be possible with chi.

What do you want me to say I can't dry towels in the freezing cold. I really don't know what your problem is.

Originally posted by inimalist
that evidence is, at best, anecdotal.

Like I said its a good place to start. IF thats actually what happened its worth investigating further. Humans arent supposed to survive in temperatures that low with freezing sheets let alone dry them. Just because they didn't fire lightning out of their fingertips doesn't mean we should rule it out completely.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Excuse me? What the hell are you talking about? Why the hell did you think I posted up the video in the first place?

and a made for TV documentary played on the History Channel, to you, is really good evidence, even when the documentary doesn't show anything other than people wrapping themselves in what we are supposed to believe are cold wet blankets?

I'm sorry, would you rather me just lambast you for terrible evidence than ask you for more?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I already told you even im not 100% convinced that its true but the point of posting the video is so that you can contact the people involved in the experiment, instead of me speculating what could be possible with chi.

I did something that I feel is a little bit better than that. Instead of asking the person running the experiment, I looked for its publication, which, in peer-reviewed journals, appears to not exist. Its not hard for people doing research to find what they are looking for.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What do you want me to say I can't dry towels in the freezing cold.

thats a good start

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I really don't know what your problem is.

right, because I don't agree with you, I have a problem.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Like I said its a good place to start. IF thats actually what happened its worth investigating further. Humans arent supposed to survive in temperatures that low with freezing sheets let alone dry them. Just because they didn't fire lightning out of their fingertips doesn't mean we should rule it out completely.

unfortunately, the only evidence that I have seen for that comes from a made for TV documentary

if that is the standard of evidence we are using, well, I'll go flag down a UFO to take bigfoot to the face on mars.

Originally posted by inimalist
and a made for TV documentary played on the History Channel, to you, is really good evidence, even when the documentary doesn't show anything other than people wrapping themselves in what we are supposed to believe are cold wet blankets?

I'm sorry, would you rather me just lambast you for terrible evidence than ask you for more?

Did you not see where I said I was not a 100% convinced? Did you not see where I said I intended to contact him and find out more information. Im not asking you to be convinced im asking you to keep an open mind and contact the people involved in the experiment. You are strawmanning.

Originally posted by inimalist

I did something that I feel is a little bit better than that. Instead of asking the person running the experiment, I looked for its publication, which, in peer-reviewed journals, appears to not exist. Its not hard for people doing research to find what they are looking for.

You can also contact Boston universcity and the man himself.

Originally posted by inimalist

right, because I don't agree with you, I have a problem.

You are strawmanning. Im not asking you to agree with me im asking you to keep an open mind and contact the people involved.

Im not the one with a problem here, don't put words into my mouth and don't accuse me of doing things im not trying to do.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Did you not see where I said I was not a 100% convinced? Did you not see where I said I intended to contact him and find out more information. Im not asking you to be convinced im asking you to keep an open mind and contact the people involved in the experiment. You are strawmanning.

You can also contact Boston universcity and the man himself.

You are strawmanning. Im not asking you to agree with me im asking you to keep an open mind and contact the people involved.

Im not the one with a problem here, don't put words into my mouth and don't accuse me of doing things im not trying to do.

telling me I don't have an open mind is also a straw man

I simply have a higher standard of evidence than you 😖hrug:

Originally posted by inimalist
telling me I don't have an open mind is also a straw man

Oh I see so were going to be a baby about it now?

Originally posted by inimalist

I simply have a higher standard of evidence than you 😖hrug:

Well considering that im not fully convinced by it anyway, then maybe not. I told you the reasons why im less sceptical about it and those are my personal experiences and those other people and you've got no right to tell those people they were halluicinating, but at the same time im not expecting you to take my experinces as evidence.

Basically you took what I was saying out of context and used it as an excuse to make fun out of peoples beliefs.

Originally posted by inimalist
unfortunately, the only evidence that I have seen for that comes from a made for TV documentary

if that is the standard of evidence we are using, well, I'll go flag down a UFO to take bigfoot to the face on mars.

If you let me come too I'll show you my Philosopher's Stone. We can go to Narnia on the way back.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If you let me come too I'll show you my Philosopher's Stone. We can go to Narnia on the way back.

Or you can contact the people involved and find out for yourself which was the purpose of this thread.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If you let me come too I'll show you my Philosopher's Stone. We can go to Narnia on the way back.
I enjoy your literature based twist to the paranormal.

Thanks, you're a peach.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Or you can contact the people involved and find out for yourself which was the purpose of this thread.
So the thread is just an advert then? You don't intend to actually defend anything?

Sorry, my horoscope told me that contacting anyone on the Eastern Seaboard would make the Illuminati send vampires and harpies to claw out my eyes.

I did find this article and video that will help your case.