Chi and energy.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So the thread is just an advert then?

Basically yes.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

You don't intend to actually defend anything?

I can't dry towels with chi, whats to defend? At the end of the day you have the people involved in the experiments who you can contact if you are serious enough. I will.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Oh I see so were going to be a baby about it now?

lol, so you have evidence that I have a closed mind? Else, its a pretty obvious strawman. Not to mention that it is personally insulting, as I would consider myself fairly open to new things.

there is a phrase: "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out"

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well considering that im not fully convinced by it anyway, then maybe not. I told you the reasons why im less sceptical about it and those are my personal experiences and those other people and you've got no right to tell those people they were halluicinating, but at the same time im not expecting you to take my experinces as evidence.

I have every right to tell anyone what I please

and no, I don't take subjective experience as proof of anything. If you want, I can look up some lit that shows, pretty unequivocally, that self reports of this manner are essentially useless in science.

also, hallucination is a very loaded term, and it is an attempt to paint my position as dismissive. I'm not saying you or they did not feel anything, just that your perception is not valid evidence to me.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Basically you took what I was saying out of context and used it as an excuse to make fun out of peoples beliefs.

I certainly did not.

I mocked believing what you see on TV.

and my initial posts contained nothing but criticism, not insult.

that is to also forget that I looked for the work you are talking about before even posting about the man

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, so you have evidence that I have a closed mind? Else, its a pretty obvious strawman. Not to mention that it is personally insulting, as I would consider myself fairly open to new things.

Im talking about you acussing me of using that link as proof.

Originally posted by inimalist

there is a phrase: "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out"

Whats that got to do with me?

Originally posted by inimalist

I have every right to tell anyone what I please

Yes you do and you can choose to be a dick about it as well.

Originally posted by inimalist

and no, I don't take subjective experience as proof of anything. If you want, I can look up some lit that shows, pretty unequivocally, that self reports of this manner are essentially useless in science.

Yes im aware that am I asking you believe in what I believe? Did I not say im not entirely convinced. Whats are you arguing about now?

Originally posted by inimalist

also, hallucination is a very loaded term, and it is an attempt to paint my position as dismissive. I'm not saying you or they did not feel anything, just that your perception is not valid evidence to me.

and do I have a problem with that? Whats your point, what are you arguing about now?

Originally posted by inimalist

I certainly did not.

Then why did you accuse me of believing what I see on TV?

Originally posted by inimalist

I mocked believing what you see on TV.

Which you accused me of doing.

Originally posted by inimalist

and my initial posts contained nothing but criticism, not insult.

Oh no your initial post didn't, but im not talking about that im talking about the hadokken statement. edit: its also pretty anooying to be told you should be lambasted for something you are not even doing.

Originally posted by inimalist

that is to also forget that I looked for the work you are talking about before even posting about the man

Do I have a problem with that?

ok, so you present a video, but you don't believe it

you have subjective experience, but they aren't convincing to you

you don't know if you believe in chi, yet you make a thread and get offended at some tongue in cheek remarks...

yet I'm close minded because I don't go talk to the researcher who is doing the experiments, even though there is no proper publication of them

like, ok, so what you are saying is that, even in light of no reliable evidence, we should all rush to ask the very person making the outrageous claims and give them credibility?

like, i dont know, if you had a video even of monks performing what is being claimed in the video, as, even that clip was cut for the purposes of the documentary. Would you be surprised to find out the monks in that scene were actors?

you seem to be getting really defensive about this, and I'm sorry if what you believe in doesn't qualify as scientific fact, but that is no reason to call people who are skeptical of your experiences close minded. How close minded is it to say that what you were experiencing couldn't be psychosomatic?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Basically yes.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I can't dry towels with chi, whats to defend?

I've no doubt stress and relaxation have effects on the body, I'm sure Dr Benson is a perfectly credible scientist, and if these monks have managed to achieve a strange form of voluntary thermoregulation that's interesting. But it doesn't mean there's anything beyond the biochemical and physiological happening. And it doesn't go anywhere towards "proof that chi exists" and if I devoted my life to harnessing this awesome-o power I can subsequently yell Incendio and burn off someone's eyebrows.

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, so you present a video, but you don't believe it

In my opinion I think its possible but the sensible things to do is to contact him and find out more about the experiements. Whats the problem?

Originally posted by inimalist

you have subjective experience, but they aren't convincing to you

Stop trying to twist things around. They are convincing to me....I don't expect them to be convincing to you, get it?

Originally posted by inimalist

you don't know if you believe in chi, yet you make a thread and get offended at some tongue in cheek remarks...

I didn't say I didn't believe in chi I said im not 100% convinced by the video. Instead of being a man about admiiting your rude your making all the excuses in the world. When somebody is discussing their beliefs I try to be civil and not make tongue-in-cheek, remarks (unless they are fundamentalists). Its not just the remarks its accusing me of doing something im not.

Originally posted by inimalist

yet I'm close minded because I don't go talk to the researcher who is doing the experiments, even though there is no proper publication of them

like, ok, so what you are saying is that, even in light of no reliable evidence, we should all rush to ask the very person making the outrageous claims and give them credibility?

See what I mean, you making excuse again. Where did I say you should rush out ask the person? Even im not going to rush out ask him. Again you are assuming im trying to say something when thats not what im doing.

Originally posted by inimalist

like, i dont know, if you had a video even of monks performing what is being claimed in the video, as, even that clip was cut for the purposes of the documentary. Would you be surprised to find out the monks in that scene were actors?

Nahhhhh really??????? Why are you telling me this? Im well aware they could be actors but they not be.....thats why you can contact the people involved!!!!!!!

Originally posted by inimalist

you seem to be getting really defensive about this, and I'm sorry if what you believe in doesn't qualify as scientific fact,

I get defensive about everything! I don't really give a shit with its sceintific fact or not if I find enough evidence that its not true i'll reject it.

Originally posted by inimalist

but that is no reason to call people who are skeptical of your experiences close minded.

I don't have a problem with you being a skeptic ive got a problem with you being rude and accusing me doing something im not.

Originally posted by inimalist

How close minded is it to say that what you were experiencing couldn't be psychosomatic?

LOL what makes you think I haven't considered the possibility. See how you're trying to twist things around?

I have no qualms about admitting that I don't soften what I say. I have no problem telling people exactly what I think of their beliefs, especially while anonymous on the internet. Why would you suppose I wouldn't admit that?

I think you are missing the point in what I'm saying, with regard to contacting Dr. Benson. Assuming he is even interested in a bunch of people with no qualifications in his field emailing him to clarify an experiment, I don't consider that good evidence. Like, people can write books about whatever they want, they can make documentaries about what they want. Both of those are subject to freedom of speech and do not have peer-reviewed content. The editors of that video are going to care more about selling the idea than about truth. There is a reason my first reaction was to go to PubMed. Since, to the best of my ability, I was unable to find anything close to people being able to dry towels with their chi energy, I am assuming it was never published for peer review. It is such a publication that would make me believe there might be something to this, else my standard of evidence would be so low that I might as well believe in shape shifting reptiles, because I can contact those researchers and I'm sure David Icke will gladly confirm that they are real.

There is a question, to be sure, of whether the documentary is properly describing Dr. Benson's research, but lets say it is. Contacting him as a way of confirming what he has done is highly spurious. It would be like calling a priest to get a unbiased view of religion. Confirmation bias is a very salient thing in research, and not just paranormal research.

Originally posted by inimalist
I have no qualms about admitting that I don't soften what I say. I have no problem telling people exactly what I think of their beliefs, especially while anonymous on the internet. Why would you suppose I wouldn't admit that?

Thats not really what I have a problem with..... * sigh*

Originally posted by inimalist

I think you are missing the point in what I'm saying, with regard to contacting Dr. Benson. Assuming he is even interested in a bunch of people with no qualifications in his field emailing him to clarify an experiment, [b]I don't consider that good evidence. Like, people can write books about whatever they want, they can make documentaries about what they want. Both of those are subject to freedom of speech and do not have peer-reviewed content. The editors of that video are going to care more about selling the idea than about truth. There is a reason my first reaction was to go to PubMed. Since, to the best of my ability, I was unable to find anything close to people being able to dry towels with their chi energy, I am assuming it was never published for peer review. It is such a publication that would make me believe there might be something to this, else my standard of evidence would be so low that I might as well believe in shape shifting reptiles, because I can contact those researchers and I'm sure David Icke will gladly confirm that they are real.[/B]

Again I don't have a problem with that? It seems you're not getting my point.

Originally posted by inimalist

There is a question, to be sure, of whether the documentary is properly describing Dr. Benson's research, but lets say it is. Contacting him as a way of confirming what he has done is highly spurious. It would be like calling a priest to get a unbiased view of religion. Confirmation bias is a very salient thing in research, and not just paranormal research.

That maybe the case but he might be able point you to sources were he has documented the experiment, he might be able to tell you why its not in a journal. Im not even opposed to actually going to the universcity myself but thats just me. Hell just because you couldn't find it alone doesn't mean it may not be documented.

Again I don't really give a shit wether you are sceptic or not too be truthful. Eventhough I believe in the supernatural I am very sympathetic to people who don't. I am really offended that you think im using that as evidence and that I expected you to believe in that just by looking at the video. I wasn't pissed off about the hadoken statement until you asked me wether he I should be lambasted for using it as evidence...which im not.

The whole point of the blasted thread was that maybe you could contact the people involved and get information on it if you were interested......its really that simple.

I don't feel the need to quote the first post in the thread back to you

however, the line under the video is something like "here is a good place to start with proof chi exists"

lol, you want me to admit I'm rude, sure, I am rude. That doesn't make me wrong, or my points any less valid.

I guess if you aren't trying to say chi is real, if you aren't trying to provide video or personal evidence, if you aren't trying to convince people, and if you only wanted to show people they could contact some person in the video (mind, you said the video isn't evidence, which then almost calls into question why we would want to contact them anyways), like, what's the point of the thread. Most people know there are people who believe in Chi, that one of those people is educated and is given money to study it is not highly convincing (especially given his research is more into relaxation).

and ya, you clearly care about whether or not I agree with you, else you would be way less defensive, and probably wouldn't nit pick words like "rush". I'm sorry basic scientific practices are offensive, I am only asking for proof.

If it's published in a peer-reviewed (life) scientific or medical Journal, then it would be on PubMed. Ergo it is not documented in a peer-reviewed Journal.

The closest thing I can find is an fMRI study on meditation, which still has nothing on monk towel-racks, which I was directed to by an article in the Harvard Gazette, which if I'm to believe these towels were dried at all, were apparently dried over "several hours." Benson apparently visited these monks in the 1980s. To me the footage doesn't seem that dated ergo if the people in the History channel programme were actors it wouldn't surprise me.

The fact that other people have to go look for shit, while you're not providing anything besides a youtube video cutscene, and that you still expect people to want to go look for "the truth [that] is out there" leads me to say "crap thread."

"I think this would be a good place to start with proof that chi exists." Heaven's forbid anyone be led to believe you were using it as evidence.

Originally posted by inimalist
I don't feel the need to quote the first post in the thread back to you

however, the line under the video is something like "here is a good place to start with proof chi exists"

What did I mean by that? Maybe you misunderstood me but I thought it was common sense that watching a video is not proof. My intention was that maybe it would interest you enough that you could contact the people involved if you wanted.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

I am personally not suprised because I believe in chi, but if you are interested enough you could contact the people doing the research.

What do you think the underlined section of my post means ie I am more open minded about this than most people on this forum but if you are sceptical there are names of instuitions and scientists that you can contact.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

lol, you want me to admit I'm rude, sure, I am rude. That doesn't make me wrong, or my points any less valid.

You can do what you like, but if you accuse somebody of doing something and thats not what they are doing it makes you look like a dick. If you want to look like a dick thats up to you.

Originally posted by inimalist

and if you only wanted to show people they could contact some person in the video (mind, you said the video isn't evidence, which then almost calls into question why we would want to contact them anyways), like, what's the point of the thread. Most people know there are people who believe in Chi, that one of those people is educated and is given money to study it is not highly convincing (especially given his research is more into relaxation).

So you think the thread is stupid, so what? The point is acussing me of using that video as evidence.

Originally posted by inimalist

and ya, you clearly care about whether or not I agree with you, else you would be way less defensive, and probably wouldn't nit pick words like "rush". I'm sorry basic scientific practices are offensive, I am only asking for proof.

See how you're making excuses again? You misunderstood what I was saying period. Instead of you simply admitting that you misunderstood what I was trying to do you're trying to put me on the defensive. Do I care what people think..to an extent but that doesn't mean I expect them to believe what I beleive by just watching a video....stop making excuses.

You misunderstood my intentions be a man and stop making excuses.

lol

so the only thing you are arguing about is whether or not you used the video as evidence?

look man, I'm not going to engage with you over something that childish. fine, you are right, the video is not evidence.

now you have even less evidence than before and there is no reason for me to contact anyone

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The fact that other people have to go look for shit, while you're not providing anything besides a youtube video cutscene, and that you still expect people to want to go look for "the truth [that] is out there" leads me to say "crap thread."

Im not telling anybody to do anything. Its not a hard concept to understand its up to you. Stop looking ofr an excuse to bite somebodies head off.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

"I think this would be a good place to start with proof that chi exists." Heaven's forbid anyone be led to believe you were using it as evidence.

If I was using it as evidence why would I want to contact the people involved to investigate further???? If it was evidence I would have just accepted the video. Stop trying to twist things around.

Multiple people being mislead by your sloppy statements says nothing of their ability to comprehend and everything of your ability to convey.

What a pointless waste of bandwidth.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Multiple people being mislead by your sloppy statements says nothing of their ability to comprehend and everything of your ability to convey.

What a pointless waste of bandwidth.

Stop makking excuses.

Originally posted by inimalist
lol

so the only thing you are arguing about is whether or not you used the video as evidence?

HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!

Originally posted by inimalist

now you have even less evidence than before and there is no reason for me to contact anyone

If you said that in the first place there would have been no argument.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Multiple people being mislead by your sloppy statements says nothing of their ability to comprehend and everything of your ability to convey.

What a pointless waste of bandwidth.

Keep making excuses.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!

so, you made a thread called "chi and energy"

posted a video about scientists looking into it

and the only thing you wanted to express was that the video is not evidence for chi?

explain to me how this thread isn't spam then? it seems a fairly pointless discussion if there is to be no discussion of the validity of chi. and it certainly wouldn't belong in the religion forum.....

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Stop makking excuses.

I and apparently, inimalist, ergo multiple people interpreted this as you submitting the video as evidence of chi from the above sequence (shock! horror!). And considering we're in a subforum of the General Discussion Forum, I and apparently inimalist interpreted a thread being created here to be intended for the purposes of "discussion." (shock! horror!)

Instead this is apparently an advertisement for us to spam A/P Benson, after being wowed by what is apparently not intended to compel people to believe (ergo evidential of) chi. Brava.

Okay, no excuses, I admit to not realizing how much of a crap thread this was immediately.

Originally posted by inimalist
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4002

Good article but I think New Age people are thinking of radiation when they say energy.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Good article but I think New Age people are thinking of radiation when they say energy.

indeed

yet, one is lucky we don't irradiate

I think they mean the X-men when they talk about energy

Originally posted by inimalist
so, you made a thread called "chi and energy"

posted a video about scientists looking into it

and the only thing you wanted to express was that the video is not evidence for chi?

Maybe we have a different defintion of evidence. I dont' expect people to be convinced by this video, I was just hoping people might be interestedd enough to contact researchers. When you are talking about 'evidence' I intepret that as something that will strongly convince you that chi is real. My intenion was that it might be something that might get you interested in doing research.

Originally posted by inimalist

explain to me how this thread isn't spam then? it seems a fairly pointless discussion if there is to be no discussion of the validity of chi. and it certainly wouldn't belong in the religion forum.....

You know what it may well be spam. I was just surfing and I thought about posting this link. You can discuss it if you want but ive got nothing that can I can prove to you that its real.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You post a video. Followed immediately by the statement that it "would be a good place to start with proof that chi exists." Followed by professing a belief in "chi."

I and apparently, inimalist, ergo multiple people interpreted this as you submitting the video as evidence of chi from the above sequence (shock! horror!). And considering we're in a subforum of the General Discussion Forum, I and apparently inimalist interpreted a thread being created here to be intended for the purposes of "discussion." (shock! horror!)

Instead this is apparently an advertisement for us to spam A/P Benson, after being wowed by what is apparently not intended to compel people to believe (ergo evidential of) chi. Brava.

Okay, no excuses, I admit to not realizing how much of a crap thread this was immediately.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Not sure where to put this really but since chi is usually associated with spirituality I thought I would put this here. Ive spoken about this video before. It shows monks wrapping themselves in cold towels in very cold envinronments and drying the towels with their body heat. It doesn't shows it straight away you will have to wait for a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjNVkPy-CEU&feature=related

I think this would be a good place to start with proof that chi exists. Its not simply about surviving the cold but its the fact that they actually managed to dry the towels, which implies they were actually able to generate energy. I am personally not suprised because I believe in chi, BUT IF you are interested enough you could contact the people doing the research.

What do you think the underlined bit means? I wasn't using the video as evidence the underlined bit clealy indicates its just something you might be interested in, my other posts also indicate that.

The issue here is wether or not I was using the video as evidence not wether I was going to discuss it.