The quotes alone do that job.
"Government means : a monopoly of force over a specific territory. An Anarchy, therefore, does not mean that there would be no police, no courts, no rules. There would simply be no monopoly of force. People would be free to participate to whatever system they want to live in, just like people today choose their work, their cell phone plan or their favourite grocery store.
As a monopoly, government is inefficient, corrupt, and has no incentive to provide the services you want, like fair justice, security, charity.".
As I said before, if that's one of anarchy's goals; why not just have a government that is good? Why the need for no government? If anarchy isn't against rules, police, courts, justice, security...why not just aspire to the idea of a better government?
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The quotes alone do that job."Government means : a monopoly of force over a specific territory. An Anarchy, therefore, does not mean that there would be no police, no courts, no rules. There would simply be no monopoly of force. People would be free to participate to whatever system they want to live in, just like people today choose their work, their cell phone plan or their favourite grocery store.
As a monopoly, government is inefficient, corrupt, and has no incentive to provide the services you want, like fair justice, security, charity.".
As I said before, if that's one of anarchy's goals; why not just have a government that is good? Why the need for no government? If anarchy isn't against rules, police, courts, justice, security...why not just aspire to the idea of a better government?
-AC
Because government would always be people forcing other people to do things as well as taking money from them.
As you probably don't know, all anarchists in this thread have said that they would want to have a good government first and then possibly anarchy. I have said multiple times that I would even settle for a good, minarchist government, it's not like the anarchists in this thread came in yelling about how we need anarchy now and how it's the only system, quite on the contrary the anti-anarchists insulted anarchy and proceeded to try to point out flaws and disregard the merits. Seriously, if you didn't follow anything that has been said in this thread could you just shut up, it's extremely irritating.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Because government would always be people forcing other people to do things as well as taking money from them.
Hence me saying; so why not just have a good government that doesn't do shit stuff? It doesn't necessarily have to be anarchy. Why not aspire to a government that isn't shit? You're essentially just after a good government, and for some reason, just don't want to call it a government.
Originally posted by Bardock42
As you probably don't know, all anarchists in this thread have said that they would want to have a good government first and then possibly anarchy. I have said multiple times that I would even settle for a good, minarchist government, it's not like the anarchists in this thread came in yelling about how we need anarchy now and how it's the only system, quite on the contrary the anti-anarchists insulted anarchy and proceeded to try to point out flaws and disregard the merits. Seriously, if you didn't follow anything that has been said in this thread could you just shut up, it's extremely irritating.
So then you're not a proper anarchist are you? The site you linked me to says "Anarchy means no government.", they clearly do not want a government at all.
If you're saying you wouldn't mind one, how much of an anarchist are you in the first place? I understand you're getting annoyed because you have only Lord XYZ and inimalist on your side (The latter more or less admitting it's all in the mind), but really? Cool it.
If you're not against all the good things that come with a government, then why even say "No government." as a goal in ANY sense? Why would people want no government if a government could work well?
-AC
Originally posted by lord xyz
Minimalist, and I think Bardock has said, they'd start off with a government with less powers, and then progressively develop further into anarchy.I agree with this.
Yes, and as I said; if you're not against all the good things a government provides, why not just aim for a very good government, and leave it at that? If that works, why would it then be necessary to get rid of a good thing?
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriHence me saying; so why not just have a good government that doesn't do shit stuff? It doesn't necessarily have to be anarchy. Why not aspire to a government that isn't shit? You're essentially just after a good government, and for some reason, just don't want to call it a government.
You have a wrong view. It might be my fault for not explaining it, well. I want a society that works well according to my ideals (kinda like everyone). The ultimate idea of those ideals is an anarchist state working something like what I described over the last 25 pages. But, obviously I would already prefer a better government to what government we have now. But even the most perfect government I can conceive of, does not fully match my ideals, in that way I am an anarchist. I also realize that anarchy might not work, because I am a sceptic, I don't think that anyone has proven that it doesn't work, but if that's ever sure, I would cease to be an anarchist.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So then you're not a proper anarchist are you? The site you linked me to says "Anarchy means no government.", they clearly do not want a government at all.
As do I.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If you're saying you wouldn't mind one, how much of an anarchist are you in the first place?
I don't know 76.8%? Odd question. I ultimately don't want a government ergo I am anarchist. That's really the jist of it.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I understand you're getting annoyed because you have only Lord XYZ and inimalist on your side (The latter more or less admitting it's all in the mind), but really? Cool it.
Again, indication that you have not read the thread. RocasAtoll stated repeatedly that he is an anarchist and argued with us (I didn't count xyz for reasons you stated). Isn't it embarassing to you at all that it's obvious that you haven't done the most fundamental research? Not even a tiny bit embarassing? Weird.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If you're not against all the good things that come with a government, then why even say "No government." as a goal in ANY sense? Why would people want no government if a government could work well?-AC
It could work well. Just, in my opinion, not as well as an anarchist society. That's kinda like saying to someone that likes strawberry ice cream a bit and chocolate ice cream a lot "Why would you want chocolate ice cream if strawberry ice cream tastes good, too?"
Odd.
[edit] Also, since you seem to be quite happy at comparing support for either side. That would be inimalist, RocasAtoll, xyz and me.
Against, you (with no argumetns), AsterPhoenix (who is an idiot), Symmetric Chaos (who is a fascist) and xmarksthespot (who actually appreciates the idea of anarchy just isn't convinced it could work).
Yeah, you got the highground there, mate.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriBecause it would be better. Are you against all the good things the government gives you now? If not, WHY CHANGE ANYTHING?
Yes, and as I said; if you're not against all the good things a government provides, why not just aim for a very good government, and leave it at that? If that works, why would it then be necessary to get rid of a good thing?-AC
Originally posted by Bardock42
You have a wrong view. It might be my fault for not explaining it, well. I want a society that works well according to my ideals (kinda like everyone). The ultimate idea of those ideals is an anarchist state working something like what I described over the last 25 pages. But, obviously I would already prefer a better government to what government we have now. But even the most perfect government I can conceive of, does not fully match my ideals, in that way I am an anarchist. I also realize that anarchy might not work, because I am a sceptic, I don't think that anyone has proven that it doesn't work, but if that's ever sure, I would cease to be an anarchist.
So basically you want a society that caters to your ideals? There are people who want that and would use force to achieve it, governments, police and laws stop that happening in most countries.
No government is just ridiculous. There isn't any realistic way you could propose it that wouldn't sound inexplicable stupid to me.
Originally posted by Bardock42
As do I.I don't know 76.8%? Odd question. I ultimately don't want a government ergo I am anarchist. That's really the jist of it.
And I feel anarchy is utterly stupid, you can't handle that, despite me having, as well others in this thread, legitimate reasons for feeling such.
I feel, if you're not opposed to all the things a government currently does right, then why be against one in the first place? There's probably some tiny, personal reason for you being an anarchist, which would be up to you, but ultimately prove my point.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Again, indication that you have not read the thread. RocasAtoll stated repeatedly that he is an anarchist and argued with us (I didn't count xyz for reasons you stated). Isn't it embarassing to you at all that it's obvious that you haven't done the most fundamental reasearch? Not even a tiny bit embarassing? Weird.
A) I have.
B) Even if I hadn't, I've read the thread and the link you sent, and it's all still bullshit, Bardock. If you dislike the fact that someone isn't giving you credit, then that's fine. I just remember I'm arguing with a man who wants anarchy, and nothing is embarassing.
Originally posted by Bardock42
It could work well. Just, in my opinion, not as well as an anarchist society. That's kinda like saying to someone that likes strawberry ice cream a bit and chocolate ice cream a lot "Why would you want chocolate ice cream if strawberry ice cream tastes good, too?"Odd.
It's not like that, is it?
You, for some obscure, personal reason, want no government at all. Nothing you've said in this thread has convinced me it's a good idea, and the same goes for people you clearly hold in higher regard, so it's obviously not just me.
If the argument was; make the government better, I'd agree, but that's not what you're arguing.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Against, you (with no argumetns), AsterPhoenix (who is an idiot), Symmetric Chaos (who is a fascist) and xmarksthespot (who actually appreciates the idea of anarchy just isn't convinced it could work).Yeah, you got the highground there, mate.
Well I happen to think you're all being idiotic for believing in anarchy, so it works out doesn't it?
Originally posted by Bardock42
Because it would be better. Are you against all the good things the government gives you now? If not, WHY CHANGE ANYTHING?
Would be? What did you say about not claiming things as fact?
Prove it would be better.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriSo basically you want a society that caters to your ideals?
Of course, like everyone, really.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There are people who want that and would use force to achieve it, governments, police and laws stop that happening in most countries.
There are also people who want that and use the government to force it, though. What's your point?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No government is just ridiculous. There isn't any realistic way you could propose it that wouldn't sound inexplicable stupid to me.
Again, just your opinion again. And I don't think I want to convince you, you seem to have a predecided opinion.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
And I feel anarchy is utterly stupid, you can't handle that, despite me having, as well others in this thread, legitimate reasons for feeling such.
I can handle that, it's just childish and ridiculous. Especially since you, contrary to your claim, have no legitimate reason for feeling so, you haven't even a clue what the anarchy we defended is about.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I feel, if you're not opposed to all the things a government currently does right, then why be against one in the first place? There's probably some tiny, personal reason for you being an anarchist, which would be up to you, but ultimately prove my point.
It's not my problem that you have such limitations in your mind. I can very well differentiate between ultimate goals and short term advantages.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) I have.B) Even if I hadn't, I've read the thread and the link you sent, and it's all still bullshit, Bardock. If you dislike the fact that someone isn't giving you credit, then that's fine. I just remember I'm arguing with a man who wants anarchy, and nothing is embarassing.
So you just read over RocasAtoll's posts? Or why did you forget him. It's hard to watch you lie your way through. Embarassing, really.
And again your argument is "Anarchy is bullshit, therefore I don't have to think about your points".
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriIt's not like that, is it?
It is.
You, for some obscure, personal reason, want no government at all. Nothing you've said in this thread has convinced me it's a good idea, and the same goes for people you clearly hold in higher regard, so it's obviously not just me.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, you probably didn't read anything I said in this thread, so that doesn't worry me, too much.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If the argument was; make the government better, I'd agree, but that's not what you're arguing.-AC
I am arguing, make the government better and when it is in it's best take the next step, which will again improve living, if it is feasible.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Of course, like everyone, really.
I, unlike you, accept that not every one of my ideals will be catered to. I do not see the best policy as then removing it.
Originally posted by Bardock42
There are also people who want that and use the government to force it, though. What's your point?
That a system of government is better than no system of government, in general. I'd have thought that was obvious.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I can handle that, it's just childish and ridiculous. Especially since you, contrary to your claim, have no legitimate reason for feeling so, you haven't even a clue what the anarchy we defended is about.
I've read the entire thread, read your links, so evidently you must be shit at explaining it, and so must the professional anarchists. Cos it all still sounds like utter rubbish, and always has done to me. I've discussed this since before you were an anarchist, it was stupid to me then.
Originally posted by Bardock42
It's not my problem that you have such limitations in your mind. I can very well differentiate between ultimate goals and short term advantages.
I have limits in my mind because I disagree with anarchy? And you claim I have no arguments? Honestly? You are the one who has no sensible argument.
Originally posted by Bardock42
So you just read over RocasAtoll's posts? Or why did you forget him. It's hard to watch you lie your way through. Embarassing, really.
I believe anarchy, and anyone who believes it would work, is being idiotic. What about that is confusing?
Originally posted by Bardock42
And again your argument is "Anarchy is bullshit, therefore I don't have to think about your points".
I've thought about your points, I disagree, what's your problem with that?
Originally posted by Bardock42
I am arguing, make the government better and when it is in it's best take the next step, which will again improve living, if it is feasible.
When a government is at its best, after making it better; remove it?
Sounds like it'd go swimmingly.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriI, unlike you, accept that not every one of my ideals will be catered to. I do not see the best policy as then removing it.
Where did I say I don't accept that? Don't be stupid, again.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That a system of government is better than no system of government, in general. I'd have thought that was obvious.
I understand that's your general point. I was referring to that specific example of yours that had nothing to do with anything.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've read the entire thread, read your links, so evidently you must be shit at explaining it, and so must the professional anarchists. Cos it all still sounds like utter rubbish, and always has done to me. I've discussed this since before you were an anarchist, it was stupid to me then.
Or you don't understand it. You just don't get it, it's okay, it's not for everyone. Yeah, you have a great and glorious debating history with anarchists, I'm sure, but you seem to have lost your touch, cause what you said in here, so far, is just baseless accusations and ad hominem arguments. Weak, really.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I have limits in my mind because I disagree with anarchy? And you claim I have no arguments? Honestly? You are the one who has no sensible argument.
No, you have limits in your mind because you can't differentiate between different strategies for an ultimate goal and use it as counter argument. It's silly.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I believe anarchy, and anyone who believes it would work, is being idiotic. What about that is confusing?
Has nothing to do with you lying about stuff, does it? It's not confusing, either, it's just childish.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I've thought about your points, I disagree, what's your problem with that?
That I doubt you actually thought about them. Also that you are unable to produce actual arguments. All I heard from you is "Anarchy is bullshit", "You are just being rebellious" "If it can work why didn't it work yet?" ... all logical fallacies. Funny.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
When a government is at its best, after making it better; remove it?
Nah, what I said.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Sounds like it'd go swimmingly.-AC
Originally posted by Bardock42
Where did I say I don't accept that? Don't be stupid, again.
Well what's your reason for having no conceivable government that works?
Originally posted by Bardock42
Or you don't understand it. You just don't get it, it's okay, it's not for everyone. Yeah, you have a great and glorious debating history with anarchists, I'm sure, but you seem to have lost your touch, cause what you said in here, so far, is just baseless accusations and ad hominem arguments. Weak, really.
Funny how you say I don't get it, but it's not for everyone. Exactly, I get it, but it's not for everyone. It's for you, clearly.
I never said I have a glorious debating history with anarchists, you delightful simpleton, I said I have debated it before and it has always seemed dumb to me. You are not the beginning and end of all anarchists.
It's not ad hominem is it? I think you're stupid for believing in anarchy. Big deal. I'm pretty sure you don't give a shit.
Originally posted by Bardock42
No, you have limits in your mind because you can't differentiate between different strategies for an ultimate goal and use it as counter argument. It's silly.
The goal itself is what's ridiculous to me, it doesn't matter what strategy you use to get to a point of no government; no government is not workable.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Has nothing to do with you lying about stuff, does it? It's not confusing, either, it's just childish.
Like anarchy.
Originally posted by Bardock42
That I doubt you actually thought about them. Also that you are unable to produce actual arguments. All I heard from you is "Anarchy is bullshit", "You are just being rebellious" "If it can work why didn't it work yet?" ... all logical fallacies. Funny.
Well then evidently you have selective hearing, that's not something I can help you with, but don't be so hypocritical as to claim I ignore people, then.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, what I said.
You ultimately want no government, so even at its best, your next step would be to remove it, would it not?
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriThe good things that come from that kind of government are good because they are anarchic/libertarian principals. Going to anarchy would be a step in the right direction.
Yes, and as I said; if you're not against all the good things a government provides, why not just aim for a very good government, and leave it at that? If that works, why would it then be necessary to get rid of a good thing?-AC
I would like people to stop saying that I believe Anarchy is all in the mind.
how much clearer must I put it. I believe it is a viable form of human organization.
I said it has an emotional, and ethical basis. Thus, not being the science of anarchy.
Guess what, all other political philosophies can have the same said for them. There is no science of governing people.
Originally posted by inimalist
I would like people to stop saying that I believe Anarchy is all in the mind.how much clearer must I put it. I believe it is a viable form of human organization.
I said it has an emotional, and ethical basis. Thus, not being the science of anarchy.
Guess what, all other political philosophies can have the same said for them. There is no science of governing people.
I do hope I'm not being implicated as one of these people.