I wouldn't say a Kas'im victory to Kyle is assured, really. He is the Battlemaster, a veteran and Jacen considered him one of the few Jedi who was a threat. Kenobi should be able to stay alive in so far as his supreme Soresu knowledge goes...could go either way depending on Kas'im and Kyle...switch it up and it's the same way really
Originally posted by Enyalus
And Kyle's era includes Corran Horn, who wouldn't even be able to telekinetically throw the brick that Naga Sadow did. 😛 Plus he's much older.
Woah, let's ease up on Corran here, the guy manages to be uber without the most basic of Jedi abilities (albeit while being a tiny bit of a gary-stu). Still, corran would have 90% of the force users in the galaxy crapping their pants with the visions he could put in their heads. I mean, how long could you last with the image, sound and...smell of Jar Jar Binks being projected into your head. It'd be 10 seconds before you ate your own lightsaber.
More on topic, It's a tough bout for either side, though I'm inclined to side with the Jedi. Kas'im is a beast for sure, but so's Katarn and Kenobi's no slouch. Kaox was among the best of a fairly iffy era of sith. I mean, the most competent among the sith at the time were both Ex-Jedi after all.
Originally posted by Faunus
Kyle versus Kas'im would be epic, but I'm not seeing Krul taking down Kenobi.Whoa, alliteration. Advent totally did that on purpose.
Kenobi has a horrible record in duels. He gets beaten badly by Maul, Dooku twice, Ventress twice (right?), and only defeats Anakin because 1) he's sparred against him hundreds of times, 2) he was fighting smart and giving ground, slowly tiring Anakin out, and 3) Anakin is stupid and waaay overconfident.
Krul is extremely aggressive like Anakin is. And he's fast enough to chase down a full-throttle speeder on foot, so I assume he'd be able to blitz Kenobi pretty well and put him on the defensive. Moreover, going from the acrobatic moves and flips he uses, Krul probably practices either Ataru or Juyo - and Sorseu isn't well suited to either.
Anakin's Djem So consisted of constantly attacking Kenobi with powerful frontal strikes and not letting up, which plays into Sorseu because all Kenobi has to do is move his blade around a bit in front of him. If Krul used Ataru or Juyo, he's going to be leaping around all over the place and Kenobi is going to have to defend 270 degrees around. Added to that, with all the elbows and kicks Krul used, it's likely he mixes somekind of martial arts into his style. And if he uses Juyo, he'd be a high end master of multiple forms, who's probably utterly familiar with Kenobi's style. In addition, the novelization said Anakin was tiring and that was Kenobi's intention. Krul's fight lasted for hours on end, with the Jedi knowing she was not going to be able to win. She gives into the Dark Side to draw on the strength he was drawing on, making her stronger - and she realizes it still isn't enough and his win is still inevitable. The only way she ends up killing him is by sacrificing herself - he goes high and instead of parrying, she goes low at the same time. Moreover, he's got Sith armor which protects him from most Jedi attacks (Force Push? I think that's neutral).
Again, Kenobi isn't a duelist. And he doesn't like to fight. Krul is a born and borderline psychopathic killer who has over 100 Jedi kills to his credit. I think he beats Kenobi. Or at the very least, keeps him busy until Kas'im kills Katarn.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Kenobi has a horrible record in duels. He gets beaten badly by Maul, Dooku twice, Ventress twice (right?), and only defeats Anakin because 1) he's sparred against him hundreds of times, 2) he was fighting smart and giving ground, slowly tiring Anakin out, and 3) Anakin is stupid and waaay overconfident.
Krul is extremely aggressive like Anakin is. And he's fast enough to chase down a full-throttle speeder on foot, so I assume he'd be able to blitz Kenobi pretty well and put him on the defensive.
Moreover, going from the acrobatic moves and flips he uses, Krul probably practices either Ataru or Juyo - and Sorseu isn't well suited to either.
Anakin's Djem So consisted of constantly attacking Kenobi with powerful frontal strikes and not letting up, which plays into Sorseu because all Kenobi has to do is move his blade around a bit in front of him. If Krul used Ataru or Juyo, he's going to be leaping around all over the place and Kenobi is going to have to defend 270 degrees around.
Added to that, with all the elbows and kicks Krul used, it's likely he mixes somekind of martial arts into his style.
And if he uses Juyo, he'd be a high end master of multiple forms, who's probably utterly familiar with Kenobi's style.
In addition, the novelization said Anakin was tiring and that was Kenobi's intention. Krul's fight lasted for hours on end, with the Jedi knowing she was not going to be able to win. She gives into the Dark Side to draw on the strength he was drawing on, making her stronger - and she realizes it still isn't enough and his win is still inevitable. The only way she ends up killing him is by sacrificing herself - he goes high and instead of parrying, she goes low at the same time. Moreover, he's got Sith armor which protects him from most Jedi attacks (Force Push? I think that's neutral).
Again, Kenobi isn't a duelist. And he doesn't like to fight. Krul is a born and borderline psychopathic killer who has over 100 Jedi kills to his credit. I think he beats Kenobi. Or at the very least, keeps him busy until Kas'im kills Katarn.
And this is assuming Kas'im will kill Kyle. Kyle is just as capable of killing him.
Originally posted by LS
You mean he's beaten by two of the best duelists who ever lived? And last record, he beats Ventress in Clone Wars.
He also beat Grievous and is considered the best Soresu master
Doesn't he lose to her several times before that, though? Also, he beat a weakened and crippled Grievous. Since it took Mace to beat a healthy Grievous, I doubt Kenobi could have done similar. Besides that, GG doesn't have any defense against the Force. Any skilled Jedi should have been able to put him down - especially one who is on the Jedi High Council.
That speed throws him totally off balance when he tries to attack and renders him unconcious for a few hours. Kenobi is able to block an attack that seems to be from twenty sabers. Simultaneously
No, he got careless and lost his balance. Something about paying more attention to the swing than to the ground. He's made the mistake once. Its doubtful he'd make it again. Furthermore, he uses similar speed to blitz Dree. I know she's a padawon and that makes it somewhat of a poor example, but nevertheless it should be enough to throw Kenobi into a defensive stance and seize the initiative.
Also, does GG still have 20 strikes per second in his injured state, or is that only before Mace Force Crushes him?
He can handle an attack from every angle and keep up with Ventress at his best and she's just as acrobatic
Ah, yes...but can she levitate? 😉
Not anything that didn't come into play from Maul's integration of Teras Kasi
And how'd he fare against Maul?
Why would a Sith bother with Soresu? Defense isn't something Juyo excels at...it aims for savage offense to wear the opponent down and kill quick.
Kas'im knew it. To even know Juyo you have to first be a master of multiple lower forms. One could safely assume that Soresu would be a staple, given its pure devotion to defense....But, again, if he's using Juyo or Ataru, those are offensively based - combined with Krul's speed and Kenobi is going to be backpeddling and twisting from every angle in attempt to fend off his blows.
Alchemical armor doesn't prevented Kenobi from affecting the environment. Obi-wan took on and was superior to General Grievous of all people. Obi-wan is someone capable of drawing on energy and fighting almost tirelessly.
His armor is lightsaber resistant, though. And again, GG was weakened and definitely not up to par. Anakin could've killed him too, and so could have probably at least half of the Council[/Objectivity].... Besides Ki-Adi-Mundi - 'cause he sucks.
Also...what's that about Obi-Wan? I didn't know that. Positive on this?
And this is assuming Kas'im will kill Kyle. Kyle is just as capable of killing him.
Naw. You need to let go of your Path of Destruction hate. 😉
Originally posted by EnyalusDoesn't he lose to her several times before that, though? Also, he beat a weakened and crippled Grievous. Since it took Mace to beat a healthy Grievous, I doubt Kenobi could have done similar. Besides that, GG doesn't have any defense against the Force. Any skilled Jedi should have been able to put him down - especially one who is on the Jedi High Council.
And according to Mace, Kenobi is the one who is better equipped to fight Grievous than any Jedi. Himself included. If would have taken 'any' skilled Jedi, then the NUMEROUS skilled Jedi he butchered would have done it
No, he got careless and lost his balance. Something about paying more attention to the swing than to the ground. He's made the mistake once. Its doubtful he'd make it again. Furthermore, he uses similar speed to blitz Dree. I know she's a padawon and that makes it somewhat of a poor example, but nevertheless it should be enough to throw Kenobi into a defensive stance and seize the initiative.
Also, does GG still have 20 strikes per second in his injured state, or is that only before Mace Force Crushes him?
Ah, yes...but can she levitate? 😉
And how'd he fare against Maul?
Kas'im knew it. To even know Juyo you have to first be a master of multiple lower forms.
One could safely assume that Soresu would be a staple, given its pure devotion to defense....But, again, if he's using Juyo or Ataru, those are offensively based - combined with Krul's speed and Kenobi is going to be backpeddling and twisting from every angle in attempt to fend off his blows.
His armor is lightsaber resistant, though.
And again, GG was weakened and definitely not up to par.
Anakin could've killed him too, and so could have probably at least half of the Council[/Objectivity].... Besides Ki-Adi-Mundi - 'cause he sucks.
Also...what's that about Obi-Wan? I didn't know that. Positive on this?
Naw. You need to let go of your Path of Destruction hate. 😉 [/B]
Kas'im's terrific, but he relies a lot on his Jar'Kai being able to give him an edge at the end.
And Kyle used a previously unseen Dark Side attack to kill Boc Aseca, too. (Spear of Midnight Black), and Kyle's really, really strong in the Force...heck, he also knows sever Force.
Kyle's got a shot. It's a good one.
Did somebody just refer to General Grievous as a second rate assassin? For the record, my children, both times that Obi-Wan Kenobi faced General Grievous, he was in a state of living Force. See the novelization for the incredible details, but the General is established as one of the greatest Jedi killers and duelists in the prequel trilogy, even without the assistance of Force energies and sensitivity.
Originally posted by LightsnakeSo does Ventress.
He gets better.
The points where Ventress bests him? Obi-wan tends to be barely able to even stand beforehand.Not true. She knocks him on his back in seconds immediately after taking out Kit Fisto, and would've killed him if the Nautolan hadn't collapsed the dock.
And according to Mace, Kenobi is the one who is better equipped to fight Grievous than any Jedi. Himself included.Which is BS, because Mace has already gotten the best of Grievous - three sources show it happening, one in a brief duel in LoE, the Force-crush in CWC, and the STAP-to-the-head in Obsession.
If would have taken 'any' skilled Jedi, then the NUMEROUS skilled Jedi he butchered would have done itAs it was, Dooku told Grievous he would be endangered if he were to face any of the Council members or Cin Drallig.
He was considered the finest master of Soresu in histor.y..Was this ever canonically stated?
Kas'im's trump cards don't worry on Kyle, who's cut down swarms of DBL and Jar'Kai users. Kyle is a battlemaster and Jacen considered him one of the only Jedi who could be a threat.Only against Bane. You could count on your hands the number of individuals who have his level of familiarity with the dueling forms.Kas'im's terrific, but he relies a lot on his Jar'Kai being able to give him an edge at the end.
And Kyle used a previously unseen Dark Side attack to kill Boc Aseca, too. (Spear of Midnight Black), and Kyle's really, really strong in the Force...heck, he also knows sever Force.Kas'im withstood a Force-attack that demolished a building. Kyle, in JA, got thrown into a pillar by Tavion. Of course, he then proceeds to hold up the collapsed ceiling of a building, so I suppose he was taken by surprise.
Kyle's got a shot. It's a good one.I agree. However, considering Kyle has had zero formal lightsaber training and has never faced someone with an even remotely comparable technical mastery of the blade, Kas'im could most definitely pull of a win. I'm slightly more inclined to give it to him, really.
Originally posted by Faunus
So does Ventress.Not true. She knocks him on his back in seconds immediately after taking out Kit Fisto, and would've killed him if the Nautolan hadn't collapsed the dock.
Which is BS, because Mace has already gotten the best of Grievous - three sources show it happening, one in a brief duel in LoE, the Force-crush in CWC, and the STAP-to-the-head in Obsession.
As it was, Dooku told Grievous he would be endangered if he were to face any of the Council members or Cin Drallig.
Was this ever canonically stated?
Only against Bane. You could count on your hands the number of individuals who have his level of familiarity with the dueling forms.
Kas'im withstood a Force-attack that demolished a building. Kyle, in JA, got thrown into a pillar by Tavion. Of course, he then proceeds to hold up the collapsed ceiling of a building, so I suppose he was taken by surprise.
I agree. However, considering Kyle has had zero formal lightsaber training and has never faced someone with an even remotely comparable technical mastery of the blade, Kas'im could most definitely pull of a win. I'm slightly more inclined to give it to him, really.
Originally posted by LightsnakeThey go back and forth - Kenobi always manages to survive, run away, or somehow prevail. And I believe he wins in the new "movie," but it's close.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Obi-wan win the duel in Clone War? No idea about timeframe.
He also holds his own in Dreadnoughts of Rendili and when he escapes her fortress
Was it before or after there Grievous bested two council members at once? And kill-wise, he pretty soundly beat Adi GalliaMy mistake.
Grievous was told that, if were to lose any of three critical elements - fear, surprise, and intimidation - he would do best to flee. You'll recall that when he took down the Jedi on Hypori, they were all exhausted and mostly scared shitless. Starting the fight by driving Ki-Adi's apprentice into the ground helped, too.
Ok, history of the JEDI to be fairAgain, where is this stated? I know Mace believes him to be the quintessential Jedi Master and "the" master of the form, but I don't recall Kenobi ever being noted to be the greatest in history.
Good point here, actually. Still, Obi-wan's pretty darned experienced himself and he's faced a fair few Dark Jedi...he's a king of Soresu, knows Djem so very well, knows Ataro, has some basic elements of Shii-cho and Niman...and after Maul, I've little doubt he'd have made sure to know how to fight a Juyo user. While Obi-wan's certainly not versed in forms as Bane is, I'd say he knows them well enough and his Soresu is great enough to give him incredible defenseAll true, and naturally I don't see Kas'im simply walking through him or anything of the sort - a battle between those two would be long and awesome.
Didn't she use Ragnos's scepter, too? And Kyle's force abilities aren't much to scoff at given how quickly he learns and how he knows sever ForceShe used Jaden's lightsaber to break a wall and escape, and used the scepter to bring down the ceiling, but she Force-pushed him with her hand. It's possible that she was getting that dark side "high" from Vjun, though.
I'm pretty sure with the discovery of the Tedryn Holocron and the rediscovery of the classic forms, Kyle'd have knowledge of them at least and has the experience tested in battle. Jacen considered him one of the few Jedi who could be a threat to him in a battle.Still, being "familiar" with them and facing down the ultimate master of all of them are two very different things.
Originally posted by Faunus
They go back and forth - Kenobi always manages to survive, run away, or somehow prevail. And I believe he wins in the new "movie," but it's close.
My mistake.Grievous was told that, if were to lose any of three critical elements - fear, surprise, and intimidation - he would do best to flee. You'll recall that when he took down the Jedi on Hypori, they were all exhausted and mostly scared shitless. Starting the fight by driving Ki-Adi's apprentice into the ground helped, too.
Again, where is this stated? I know Mace believes him to be the quintessential Jedi Master and "the" master of the form, but I don't recall Kenobi ever being noted to be the greatest in history.
All true, and naturally I don't see Kas'im simply walking through him or anything of the sort - a battle between those two would be long and awesome.
She used Jaden's lightsaber to break a wall and escape, and used the scepter to bring down the ceiling, but she Force-pushed him with her hand. It's possible that she was getting that dark side "high" from Vjun, though.
Still, being "familiar" with them and facing down the ultimate master of all of them are two very different things.