I was wrong!!!

Yes, I, Kovacs86, the artist formerly known as Knightfall93, confess that I was wrong. I did several times criticise the Dark Knight Returns very, very strongly. However, having decided to reread the graphic novel with an open mind, several years later, I actually loved it. No, it's not the greatest graphic novel of all time; it's not even the best Batman comic or even Miller's best (Daredevil: Born Again is superior, as is Batman: Year One), in my opinion, but I confess, I loved it.
I hang my head in shame...

Of course you were.

I personally believe that The Dark Knight Returns is awfully overrated. It's a good book, but it's far from the best Batman comic ever. Even in the last ten years, there were at the very least two Batman comics superior to it- Hush and Long Halloween (didn't get to reading Dark Victory. Yet.).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I personally believe that The Dark Knight Returns is awfully overrated. It's a good book, but it's far from the best Batman comic ever. Even in the last ten years, there were at the very least two Batman comics superior to it- Hush and Long Halloween (didn't get to reading Dark Victory. Yet.).

A) Yes, it's overrated. But not wildly so.

B) Hush was alright. It certainly was no DKR. The story was certainly nothing special.

C) The Long Halloween's more than ten years old, I believe. Also, I would hate to say which of the two I prefer. DKR is, however, considerably better than Dark Victory, which was only alright.

D) If I were to actually choose any Batman comic that's better, the only one I would definitely say is superior is Miller's other work, Year One.So either way, Miller > Loeb. Though, to be fair, they've both been sucking for a while now (see: All Star Batman for Miller, Ultimates 3 for Loeb).

Originally posted by Kovacs86
A) Yes, it's overrated. But not wildly so.

Hmm...? I think it's 'okay'. The only part I really like about it was Batman vs. The Joker.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
B) Hush was alright. It certainly was no DKR. The story was certainly nothing special.

The 'mystery' was hella easy, but I loved the story, mainly because of the amazing art and it being so deliciously readable. I loved Catwoman in it, too. I wouldn't say it's the best Batman book ever, but it's an awesome comic.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
C) The Long Halloween's more than ten years old, I believe. Also, I would hate to say which of the two I prefer. DKR is, however, considerably better than Dark Victory, which was only alright.

Well, I liked Long Halloween a lot better than DKR, personally. The art isn't very good, but I liked how it felt so much more like a crime drama than your average superhero comic, for example. I believe it accomplished that better than DKR.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
D) If I were to actually choose any Batman comic that's better, the only one I would definitely say is superior is Miller's other work, Year One.So either way, Miller > Loeb. Though, to be fair, they've both been sucking for a while now (see: All Star Batman for Miller, Ultimates 3 for Loeb).

Long Halloween, Hush, Killing Joke, Year One, maybe Arkham Asylum are all above it, in my opinion. I could probably list more if I could think of them at the moment.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hmm...? I think it's 'okay'. The only part I really like about it was Batman vs. The Joker.

Did you not like the build-up to Batman's return, and then his return itself? It was very well written.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The 'mystery' was hella easy, but I loved the story, mainly because of the amazing art and it being so deliciously readable. I loved Catwoman in it, too. I wouldn't say it's the best Batman book ever, but it's an awesome comic.

I disagree that Hush was awesome. It was an OK story with brilliant art. I tend to rate art as a distant second to story in a comic, and DKR's art was alright, not enough to ruin a good story.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, I liked Long Halloween a lot better than DKR, personally. The art isn't very good, but I liked how it felt so much more like a crime drama than your average superhero comic, for example. I believe it accomplished that better than DKR.

What on Earth was wrong with the Long Halloween art? Sale's great!

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Long Halloween, Hush, Killing Joke, Year One, maybe Arkham Asylum are all above it, in my opinion. I could probably list more if I could think of them at the moment.

The Long Halloween I understand, though I think DKR edges it because it was more original, for me. Loeb just took what Miller did in Year One and continued that story in Long Halloween. DKR was something special, at the time.
The Killing Joke is extremely good, but horribly short, and nothing on Moore's other work. That, I think, is overrated, though good, nonetheless. DKR wins against this because of it having a more satisfying storyline.
I've already said I prefer Year One, and I've never read Arkham Asylum.

However, I do think that those who claim DKR to be the greatest comic of all time are rather pushing it. It just can't rival, in my opinion, the complexity of Watchmen, in any respect. Nothing can, in the comics medium, I believe.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Did you not like the build-up to Batman's return, and then his return itself? It was very well written.

It was pretty cool, come to think of it. I suppose if I had to choose my main problem, it's the mutant gang storyline. I really, really didn't like it. I'm not sure I can explain why, though. Maybe I need to read DKR again. I'm suddenly starting to feel like it may be awesome if I read it again.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
I disagree that Hush was awesome. It was an OK story with brilliant art. I tend to rate art as a distant second to story in a comic, and DKR's art was alright, not enough to ruin a good story.

Art is important, certainly. Second to a good story, of course- and I found Hush's story to be incredible. Of course, art always does help. Hush's primary strengths are it's excellent storytelling quality (I was constantly in suspense and waiting to read more, which is more than I can say for DKR), the compelling Catwoman/Batman dynamic, the general power of the characters, and, of course, its art. The mystery? Sub-par. But Hush is an incredible character.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
What on Earth was wrong with the Long Halloween art? Sale's great!

While I can appreciate that art, it feels very, I dunno, kind of overly simplistic for me. I prefer complex art.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
The Long Halloween I understand, though I think DKR edges it because it was more original, for me. Loeb just took what Miller did in Year One and continued that story in Long Halloween. DKR was something special, at the time.

It was, and now, bloody hell, I can't wait to read it again. Perhaps I missed something when I originally read it, lol.

Long Halloween wins because it is both a superb read, an excellent noir-styled crime drama, a fascinating mystery. It also allows Batman to fight both 'freaks' and the more real-life mob, which is one of the greatest strengths of Nolan's franchise.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
The Killing Joke is extremely good, but horribly short, and nothing on Moore's other work. That, I think, is overrated, though good, nonetheless. DKR wins against this because of it having a more satisfying storyline.

I think the Killing Joke is awesome because it explains the relationship between the Joker and Batman so well, and also explains the character of the Joker. An understandable character is always superior to an un-understandable one.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
I've already said I prefer Year One, and I've never read Arkham Asylum.

You should try. It's one of the darkest, most twisted Batman stories out there. Not for everyone, though- I found it very tough to read.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
However, I do think that those who claim DKR to be the greatest comic of all time are rather pushing it. It just can't rival, in my opinion, the complexity of Watchmen, in any respect. Nothing can, in the comics medium, I believe.

I've never read Watchmen, personally- but DKR certainly isn't the best comic book ever.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Yes, I, Kovacs86, the artist formerly known as Knightfall93, confess that I was wrong. I did several times criticise the Dark Knight Returns very, very strongly. However, having decided to reread the graphic novel with an open mind, several years later, I actually loved it. No, it's not the greatest graphic novel of all time; it's not even the best Batman comic or even Miller's best (Daredevil: Born Again is superior, as is Batman: Year One), in my opinion, but I confess, I loved it.
I hang my head in shame...

... why is this thread worthy?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It was pretty cool, come to think of it. I suppose if I had to choose my main problem, it's the mutant gang storyline. I really, really didn't like it. I'm not sure I can explain why, though. Maybe I need to read DKR again. I'm suddenly starting to feel like it may be awesome if I read it again.

Yes, I kind of felt like that. Do it!

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Art is important, certainly. Second to a good story, of course- and I found Hush's story to be incredible. Of course, art always does help. Hush's primary strengths are it's excellent storytelling quality (I was constantly in suspense and waiting to read more, which is more than I can say for DKR), the compelling Catwoman/Batman dynamic, the general power of the characters, and, of course, its art. The mystery? Sub-par. But Hush is an incredible character.

Fair enough. That's your opinion. I've certainly read much worse.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
While I can appreciate that art, it feels very, I dunno, kind of overly simplistic for me. I prefer complex art.

That too is fair enough. I suppose Miller's is fairly simplistic (as opposed to the art used in Arkham Asylum or Watchmen [read it!]).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Long Halloween wins because it is both a superb read, an excellent noir-styled crime drama, a fascinating mystery. It also allows Batman to fight both 'freaks' and the more real-life mob, which is one of the greatest strengths of Nolan's franchise.

It is very, very good and very enjoyable. It makes you wonder why Loeb can write so much crap now when he produced some great stuff a few years ago...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I think the Killing Joke is awesome because it explains the relationship between the Joker and Batman so well, and also explains the character of the Joker. An understandable character is always superior to an un-understandable one.

I agree. It's extremely good. It's too short, though, and I hate the fact that that origin has now been adopted as something of the accepted Joker origin. Though I suppose there was that god-awful version told in Batman Confidential a while back. I hope that's not the "official" story...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
You should try. It's one of the darkest, most twisted Batman stories out there. Not for everyone, though- I found it very tough to read.

So I've heard. I intend to. Soon.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I've never read Watchmen, personally- but DKR certainly isn't the best comic book ever.

Read Watchmen, before you see the film. It's incredible, and completely unrivalled in comics.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
... why is this thread worthy?

If 100 different threads for Batman 3's villain are worthy, then so is this. I'm posting an opinion. Isn't that what forums are for?

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Yes, I kind of felt like that. Do it!

I may. Emphasize on 'may'. 😛

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Fair enough. That's your opinion. I've certainly read much worse.

Oh, hell yeah. Although I usually avoid the most godawful Batman stories.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
That too is fair enough. I suppose Miller's is fairly simplistic (as opposed to the art used in Arkham Asylum or Watchmen [read it!]).

Heh. Anyway, yeah, I prefer more detailed art.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
It is very, very good and very enjoyable. It makes you wonder why Loeb can write so much crap now when he produced some great stuff a few years ago...

Hey, he's not the only one.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
I agree. It's extremely good. It's too short, though, and I hate the fact that that origin has now been adopted as something of the accepted Joker origin. Though I suppose there was that god-awful version told in Batman Confidential a while back. I hope that's not the "official" story...

Yeah, it's status as a one-shot prevents it from being sufficiently awesome. And the Joker origin in Batman Confidential is friggin' awful- it allows for the simplicity of "He was just born evil!!!" seen in so many comics. The Joker's origin story is, IMO, due to its parallel with Batman's, one of the greatest comic book origins ever.

I would love to see a lengthened version of the Killing Joke, too.

Btw, you read The Man Who Laughs? It's basically a more updated version of his first appearance, and a very good comic. So is Clown at Midnight. And I heard that his appearance in Batman R.I.P is awesome, too.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
So I've heard. I intend to. Soon.

Get to it. It's a very good story.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Read Watchmen, before you see the film. It's incredible, and completely unrivalled in comics.

Right. I'll try to get my hands on it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Oh, hell yeah. Although I usually avoid the most godawful Batman stories.

Have you read Miller's All Star? THAT is awful. Though the art's good. The dialogue... not so good...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Heh. Anyway, yeah, I prefer more detailed art.

As do I. As do many people. But less detailed art doesn't make for a poor comic.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Hey, he's not the only one.

No. Sadly, Frank Miller himself has fallen even more spectacularly from grace.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Yeah, it's status as a one-shot prevents it from being sufficiently awesome. And the Joker origin in Batman Confidential is friggin' awful- it allows for the simplicity of "He was just born evil!!!" seen in so many comics. The Joker's origin story is, IMO, due to its parallel with Batman's, one of the greatest comic book origins ever.

I agree there. I don't like the idea of it being his set, "official" origin however. I like the Joker having a certain element of mystery.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Btw, you read The Man Who Laughs? It's basically a more updated version of his first appearance, and a very good comic. So is Clown at Midnight. And I heard that his appearance in Batman R.I.P is awesome, too.

Yes, I've read The Man Who Laughs. It's great. Brubaker's always great, actually, but I really loved that. I love a lot of Year One-period stories. I've not read the Clown at Midnight- is that available in trade paperback form? I've only read midway through RIP, as I haven't been to a comic shop in months. It was alright. A little strange. Enjoyable, but not a great "Batman" story.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Get to it. It's a very good story.

I'll get around to it ASAP.

I love DKR, but I prefer Long Halloween and Year One (mainly because I prefer young, just starting out Batman over grizzled veteran Batman)

Originally posted by Kovacs86

If 100 different threads for Batman 3's villain are worthy, then so is this. I'm posting an opinion. Isn't that what forums are for?

Of course. I Wasn't hating.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
I love DKR, but I prefer Long Halloween and Year One (mainly because I prefer young, just starting out Batman over grizzled veteran Batman)

I think that that Year One-period has certainly produced many of the best stories, which is odd, considering that most of them are retellings of earlier stories and don't have the freedom with characters and potential for originality that stories set in the present day do.

I suppose the character of Batman has developed all it can very easily in present day stories, though, and supervillains become somewhat... silly, when not juxtaposed with more realistic, understandable criminals (i.e: the mob). There have been hundreds of very similar Supervillain X VS Batman and there doesn't feel like much variety there. Batman's done it all before, whereas in stories set earlier, there's a fresher feel, perhaps because Batman is facing these villains for the first time, and thus developing an understanding of Gotham's descent, which is already complete (and, hence, there are few real developments) in modern day-set comics.
I really hope that made sense...

[B]Of course. I Wasn't hating.

Fair enough. I apologise if my response was a little... over-zealous.

Well, I'll get around to reading Watchmen. And I have this terrible, terrible feeling the movie will blow. Don't tell me you don't get that feeling.

Edit: Yeah, Kovac, did you like Heath's Joker? From the few panels I've seen of Batman #680 and the Clown at Midnight (which is much more of an actual book- with narration, an omniscent narrator, and all- than a comic book), it's the most similar to H. Joker you're gonna get in comics.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, I'll get around to reading Watchmen. And I have this terrible, terrible feeling the movie will blow. Don't tell me you don't get that feeling.

I am surprisingly optimistic about this film, though I've hated the 2 previous Moore adaptions that I've seen- League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and V for Vendetta. It actually looks surprisingly true to the comic (some parts of the trailer looked like exact replicas of scenes from the comic, remarkably). However misplaced it may prove to be, I have faith in Zack Snyder.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Edit: Yeah, Kovac, did you like Heath's Joker? From the few panels I've seen of Batman #680 and the Clown at Midnight (which is much more of an actual book- with narration, an omniscent narrator, and all- than a comic book), it's the most similar to H. Joker you're gonna get in comics.

Of course I liked Ledger's Joker. The Dark Knight was superb, and Ledger's Joker was the best part of the whole film, closely followed by the portrayal of Dent's downfall.
I've just realised that you were referring to the fairly recent Morrison issue of Batman (#66-something) when you mentioned the Clown at Midnight. I thought it was alright, though it felt a little pretentious and too much of a departure from the storyline in Batman at the time, to go into a whole separate prose Joker story. It wasn't bad, though. I just prefer to read either a good book or a good comic, not some half-arsed attempt at amalgamating the two. The man's hardly Tolkien, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
I am surprisingly optimistic about this film, though I've hated the 2 previous Moore adaptions that I've seen- League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and V for Vendetta. It actually looks surprisingly true to the comic (some parts of the trailer looked like exact replicas of scenes from the comic, remarkably). However misplaced it may prove to be, I have faith in Zack Snyder.

I feel kind of stupid for saying this, but I didn't find League of Extraordinary Gentleman to be all that bad. It's a rather retarded movie, but I found it to be somewhat fun to watch. I can't say the same for V for Vendetta, though. I hated that godawful piece of crap.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Of course I liked Ledger's Joker. The Dark Knight was superb, and Ledger's Joker was the best part of the whole film, closely followed by the portrayal of Dent's downfall.

I can hardly name a story in which the Joker is heavily featured and he isn't the best thing about it. I totally agree that his character is the best thing about the movie. Second best? I'm torn between the Bat-Voice and Maggie Gyllenhaal top-notch acting, of course.

... 😆

Seriously, I liked both Dent's downfall, the portrayal of Batman's emotional conflict, and the Gordon/Batman/Dent alliance.
...

Originally posted by Kovacs86
I've just realised that you were referring to the fairly recent Morrison issue of Batman (#66-something) when you mentioned the Clown at Midnight. I thought it was alright, though it felt a little pretentious and too much of a departure from the storyline in Batman at the time, to go into a whole separate prose Joker story. It wasn't bad, though. I just prefer to read either a good book or a good comic, not some half-arsed attempt at amalgamating the two. The man's hardly Tolkien, I'm afraid.

Oh, well, I disagree. He isn't Tolkien, but he succeeded very well in writing a creepy, dark, and unsettling Joker story. I can understand why a load of people hated it, but for me, it's an amazing Joker story.

Btw, do you know the Joker cuts his own tongue up in Batman 680? Just to freak Batman out. Taking a note out of the Dark Knight, he's also rocking two scary-looking knives.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I feel kind of stupid for saying this, but I didn't find League of Extraordinary Gentleman to be all that bad. It's a rather retarded movie, but I found it to be somewhat fun to watch. I can't say the same for V for Vendetta, though. I hated that godawful piece of crap.

Hmph. Fair enough. Most people seem to think quite the reverse. That League was a "godawful piece of crap" and that V was OK. In fact, a scary amount of people seem to think the V film was some kind of monumental work of genius. Just look at some of the reviews on IMDB. However, I recommend both the comic version of League and of V for Vendetta. Alan Moore is a genius. I think League would probably appeal more if you're into Victorian literature, however...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]I can hardly name a story in which the Joker is heavily featured and he isn't the best thing about it. I totally agree that his character is the best thing about the movie. Second best? I'm torn between the Bat-Voice and Maggie Gyllenhaal top-notch acting, of course.

... 😆

Seriously, I liked both Dent's downfall, the portrayal of Batman's emotional conflict, and the Gordon/Batman/Dent alliance.
...

I didn't have that much of a problem with Maggie Gylenhaal or the Bat-voice, to be honest. And, yes, the other two things you liked, I agree with.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Oh, well, I disagree. He isn't Tolkien, but he succeeded very well in writing a creepy, dark, and unsettling Joker story. I can understand why a load of people hated it, but for me, it's an amazing Joker story.

Meh. Fair enough. I thought it was kind of stupid. Though the morse-code blinking thing was pretty funny...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Btw, do you know the Joker cuts his own tongue up in Batman 680? Just to freak Batman out. Taking a note out of the Dark Knight, he's also rocking two scary-looking knives.

Woah. That's actually pretty scary (the tongue thing). As for the knife thing, I'm sure we'll see a lot more TDK stuff in the Joker from now on, at least for a couple of years. I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Batman Confidential origin was to tie in with the film. Unfortunately, the only element remotely relating to the film was Joker having scars...

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Hmph. Fair enough. Most people seem to think quite the reverse. That League was a "godawful piece of crap" and that V was OK. In fact, a scary amount of people seem to think the V film was some kind of monumental work of genius. Just look at some of the reviews on IMDB. However, I recommend both the comic version of League and of V for Vendetta. Alan Moore is a genius. I think League would probably appeal more if you're into Victorian literature, however...

They're... well... weird. I couldn't stand that movie, personally. Some people seem to think it's an epic, thought-provoking study about discrimation and fascism, or what not. It's a bunch of BS.

Alan Moore is, in my opinion, the greatest comic book writer of all time. Though his mainstream work was fairly limited, actually.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
I didn't have that much of a problem with Maggie Gylenhaal or the Bat-voice, to be honest. And, yes, the other two things you liked, I agree with.

I hated Maggie (her death scene was BRILLIANT, though), but I didn't have a problem with the bat-voice, personally. I actually kind of liked it, especially in Begins.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Meh. Fair enough. I thought it was kind of stupid. Though the morse-code blinking thing was pretty funny...

How can you say no to that funeral scene, for example? I absolutely love that story.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Woah. That's actually pretty scary (the tongue thing). As for the knife thing, I'm sure we'll see a lot more TDK stuff in the Joker from now on, at least for a couple of years. I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Batman Confidential origin was to tie in with the film. Unfortunately, the only element remotely relating to the film was Joker having scars...

Batman Confidential = blows. Luckily, TDK at least implied in the Joker's 'origin stories' that his past was tragic and understandable. I liked the second origin story more, personally, even if the first scene is so much scarier and more iconic (How can you forget the Joker rising out of that bodybag and sticking his knife into that mobster's mouth?). Abusive fathers are so cliched. And I liked the line "Now I see the funny side... now I'm always smiling!". Seems to me like the Joker found the irony of him being sad and depressed, but physically incapable of doing anything but smiling.

The tongue thing was downright chilling. It definetly looks like no writer will ever portray the Joker as a 'comical' killer- we're going into hardcore psychopath material. RIP's Joker seems to be the virtual mirror of H. Joker, lol.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
They're... well... weird. I couldn't stand that movie, personally. Some people seem to think it's an epic, thought-provoking study about discrimation and fascism, or what not. It's a bunch of BS.

I agree. The graphic novel, however, is fantastic. It's probably my 2nd favourite comic of all time (after Watchmen).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Alan Moore is, in my opinion, the greatest comic book writer of all time. Though his mainstream work was fairly limited, actually.

Easily. There are an awful lot of people who'd agree with you. He's light-years ahead of most other comic writers...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I hated Maggie (her death scene was BRILLIANT, though), but I didn't have a problem with the bat-voice, personally. I actually kind of liked it, especially in Begins.

The death scene certainly was excellent, though I thought she was fine in the film. She was an improvement on Katie Holmes...
As for the Bat-voice, it was pretty cool in Begins, I thought. It occasionally got a little too... growl-y in The Dark Knight.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
How can you say no to that funeral scene, for example? I absolutely love that story.[/SPOILER]

Huh? Funeral scene... I can't even remember. Damn, I'm going to have to reread that, and maybe pay a little more attention next time.

[QUOTE=11140891]Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Batman Confidential = blows.[/SPOILER]

That about sums it up, though it's a real shame. I was really looking forward to getting an on-going series focusing on Batman's early years.

[QUOTE=11140891]Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]Luckily, TDK at least implied in the Joker's 'origin stories' that his past was tragic and understandable. I liked the second origin story more, personally, even if the first scene is so much scarier and more iconic (How can you forget the Joker rising out of that bodybag and sticking his knife into that mobster's mouth?). Abusive fathers are so cliched. And I liked the line "Now I see the funny side... now I'm always smiling!". Seems to me like the Joker found the irony of him being sad and depressed, but physically incapable of doing anything but smiling.

Yes, I agree 100%.

[QUOTE=11140891]Originally posted by Master Crimzon
[B]The tongue thing was downright chilling. It definetly looks like no writer will ever portray the Joker as a 'comical' killer- we're going into hardcore psychopath material. RIP's Joker seems to be the virtual mirror of H. Joker, lol.

I'd better get to the comic shop at the weekend then, which means I'll need to take a bloody 25-minute train journey...
I was trying to avoid going, too. Maybe I'll just wait a couple of months and get it from Amazon...