Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ventress was able to take down Obi-wan a few times though, and Obi-wan was THE Soresu master, and one of the top in the Order. Does anyone really think Shaak Ti could take Obi-wan? If she could then she'd probably be better than Ventress, but she's just not.
He was still learning Soresu in AOTC - rookie enough to not feel confident using it. When, exactly, does he become a true master of the form is the question.
If Dooku and Grievous couldn't break through Obi-Wan's Soresu's defenses, I doubt Ventress would.
Passage. Ctrl + F only found the word "bladesbeing" once, and that was in reference to Mace Windu and Agen Kolar.
It's said she is one of the Order's "great bladebeings" in the ROTS novelization.
As for the second thing you asked - it is stated in TFU novelization that she is a master of Makashi and Ataru.I'd ask for the passage, but I'll take your word for it.
And where is Starkiller stated to be a Juyo master?
~
He was still learning Soresu in AOTC - rookie enough to not feel confident using it. When, exactly, does he become a true master of the form is the question.He's been learning it for eleven years as of The Cestus Deception; hardly a rookie.
Originally posted by Enyalus
He was still learning Soresu in AOTC - rookie enough to not feel confident using it. When, exactly, does he become a true master of the form is the question.If Dooku and Grievous couldn't break through Obi-Wan's Soresu's defenses, I doubt Ventress would.
Ventress did break through them, multiple times!
Seeing as he fights Ventress just a very short time before ROTS he was basically the master of it at when he and she fought. And as Faunus said, a decade of training isn't exactly rookie status.
Originally posted by Faunus
Passage. Ctrl + F only found the word "bladesbeing" once, and that was in reference to Mace Windu and Agen Kolar.
'There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan [sp] of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become.'
Originally posted by Faunus
And where is Starkiller stated to be a Juyo master?
I don't know. Gideon said he was trained in Makashi, Shien, and Juyo (I think.) Maybe gotten from the Official Databank?
Originally posted by Faunus
He's been learning it for eleven years as of The Cestus Deception; hardly a rookie.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ventress did break through them, multiple times!Seeing as he fights Ventress just a very short time before ROTS he was basically the master of it at when he and she fought. And as Faunus said, a decade of training isn't exactly rookie status.
Let's clear this up:
'Form VI, also called Niman, is the current standard in lightsaber training...it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy and negotiation...How long can you expect to study Form VI before you master it? If you dedicate yourself only to Form VI, you will study for at least ten years...Is Form VI the most worthy of study? No, but in general it is the most practical.' - Cin Drallig.
Soresu would clearly take even longer to master. While fighting Ventress, he was not as good saber wise as he was shown to be in Revenge of the Sith.
Originally posted by Enyalus
'There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the [b]other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan [sp] of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become.' [/B]
Page number?
Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't know. Gideon said he was trained in Makashi, Shien, and Juyo (I think.) Maybe gotten from the Official Databank?
You should probably find out.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Let's clear this up:'Form VI, also called Niman, is the current standard in lightsaber training...[b]it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines
, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy and negotiation...How long can you expect to study Form VI before you master it? If you dedicate yourself only to Form VI, you will study for at least ten years...Is Form VI the most worthy of study? No, but in general it is the most practical.' - Cin Drallig. [/B]
I really doubt it takes EVERYONE at least ten years to master a form. The main thing is that you're claiming that Obi-wan somehow progressed more in the final months of the War than he had in the previous 30 years. That's totally ridiculous.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Soresu would clearly take even longer to master. While fighting Ventress, he was not as good saber wise as he was shown to be in Revenge of the Sith.
Actually it's not at all clear that it would take Obi-wan such a long time to master the form. We know that as of 13 years he was the definitive master of the form and there is nothing to suggest a sudden leap in skill since the last times he had fought Ventress. You have no real claims backing up what your'e saying, proving you arguments wrong.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Page number?
I used an e-book...hence Faunus' suggestion about CTRL+F. Secondly, why does it matter? I make up quotes now?
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You should probably find out.
Why the **** should I find out? I wasn't even the one who brought it up in this thread or any other. That was Gideon. In this very thread. Page 1. Towards the bottom.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I really doubt it takes EVERYONE at least ten years to master a form. The main thing is that you're claiming that Obi-wan somehow progressed more in the final months of the War than he had in the previous 30 years. That's totally ridiculous.
What's totally ridiculous is you arguing against what the Jedi Temple's Battlemaster said. Cin Drallig has mastered all seven forms. Cin Drallig has made holocrons on lightsaber combat. That, and since he is quoted in a sourcebook as saying this, I'm inclined to take his word over yours. Moreover, 30 years is irrelevant. He'd been learning Soresu for 11.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Actually it's not at all clear that it would take Obi-wan such a long time to master the form. We know that as of 13 years he was the definitive master of the form and there is nothing to suggest a sudden leap in skill since the last times he had fought Ventress. You have no real claims backing up what your'e saying, proving you arguments wrong.
It is that clear. The Jedi Order's head battlemaster says so. Furthermore, he's the best master of Soresu in the PT era. This whole 'definitive' and 'the' master of it thing makes you sound misleading. And since it was your assertion that 'Seeing as he fights Ventress just a very short time before ROTS he was basically the master of it at when he and she fought,' that would be your burden to prove, since he is only quoted as being the master of it as of ROTS.
Ah. Thanks.
'There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the [b]other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan [sp] of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become.'[/b]
I don't know. Gideon said he was trained in Makashi, Shien, and Juyo (I think.) Maybe gotten from the Official Databank?Hopefully he'll see this and clear it up, because it's not in the Databank.
I'm not arguing that he had already mastered Soresu by CD, not at all. My contention is that, even a year into the war, he was severely outmatched by Ventress on neutral ground, although he was always the more adaptable of the two. Clearly his technical ability improved rather drastically, but I can't see him improving more in less than two years than he did in eleven.
Soresu would clearly take even longer to master. While fighting Ventress, he was not as good saber wise as he was shown to be in Revenge of the Sith.
I have no idea when it takes place. The two go back and forth, really, fighting at least half a dozen times throughout the war, which is why I'm now under the impression that on top of simply being an inferior swordsman at the time, Obi-Wan was completely taken aback by her style of fighting. Maybe he patched up some holes in his technique later on; perhaps a less drastic version of the changes he made after his duel with Maul.
Originally posted by Faunus
I'm not arguing that he had already mastered Soresu by CD, not at all. My contention is that, even a year into the war, he was severely outmatched by Ventress on neutral ground, although he was always the more adaptable of the two. Clearly his technical ability improved rather drastically, but I can't see him improving more in less than two years than he did in eleven.
That was more toward's Glentract. And while I don't necessarily like using ABC logic...in ROTS he was able to comfortably handle General Grievous, and saber-wise deal with Count Dooku just fine (the novelization notes he was picking off Dooku's feints and thrusts without moving his feet at all). Bulq was Dooku's #2. I don't know how far down on the list Ventress was, whether she was superior to Grievous or not, but I can't see her faring nearly as well as Obi-Wan fares against Dooku and GG in ROTS. Suggesting that his improvement must have been considerable.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I used an e-book...hence Faunus' suggestion about CTRL+F. Secondly, why does it matter? I make up quotes now?
I wasn't trying to say that you're making it up. I didn't know it was an e-book and I just wanted to look at it myself for context reasons. No need to get defensive.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Why the **** should I find out? I wasn't even the one who brought it up in this thread or any other. That was Gideon. In this very thread. Page 1. Towards the bottom.
Why the **** are you getting so mad? Lol
You cited the statement as fact so technically you have a burden to prove it, but whatever, it's cool. I'm sure Gideon will tell us soon enough.
Originally posted by Enyalus
What's totally ridiculous is you arguing against what the Jedi Temple's Battlemaster said. Cin Drallig has mastered all seven forms. Cin Drallig has made holocrons on lightsaber combat. That, and since he is quoted in a sourcebook as saying this, I'm inclined to take his word over yours. Moreover, 30 years is irrelevant. He'd been learning Soresu for 11.
You aren't saying what he said? What he speaking SPECIFICALLY to OBI-WAN when he said it would take a decade just to master Soresu? Obi-wan is obviously far above the average Jedi, which was Cin's target audience with that claim.
Originally posted by Enyalus
It is that clear. The Jedi Order's head battlemaster says so. Furthermore, he's the best master of Soresu in the PT era. This whole 'definitive' and 'the' master of it thing makes you sound misleading. And since it was your assertion that 'Seeing as he fights Ventress just a very short time before ROTS he was basically the master of it at when he and she fought,' that would be your burden to prove, since he is only quoted as being the master of it as of ROTS.
It's not that clear because the target audience for Cin's statement doesn't apply.
And I don't see how my responsibility for proof extends beyond what is already known, seeing as the status quo would leave a Jedi unchanged in capability. Outside factors, (aka finding a holocron, gaining some new, very powerful, skill, an amulet, ect) would be what would be expected for Obi-wan prowess to have significantly changed.
Hence, I ask you to show a significant change in Obi-wan's capabilities between his final fight with Asajj and ROTS. Your burden, not mine.
Originally posted by Faunus
I have no idea when it takes place. The two go back and forth, really, fighting at least half a dozen times throughout the war, which is why I'm now under the impression that on top of simply being an inferior swordsman at the time, Obi-Wan was completely taken aback by her style of fighting. Maybe he patched up some holes in his technique later on; perhaps a less drastic version of the changes he made after his duel with Maul.
I could be wrong, but isn't the only time Ventress really does well against him in CD? The other times, Obi-wan manages to more than hold his own at disadvantages
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why the **** are you getting so mad? LolYou cited the statement as fact so technically you have a burden to prove it, but whatever, it's cool. I'm sure Gideon will tell us soon enough.
I didn't cite anything of the sort in this or any other thread. Period.
Originally posted by Gideon
Hell, that says a lot for Shaak Ti. Starkiller was, as I recall, a master of Juyo. So her proficiency was such that she was able to dominate him by a fair margin, though he is a "high end master of multiple forms."
That's the only time in this thread Juyo is even mentioned until Faunus and yourself brought it up.
Wait, does anyone really think that Ventress was a match for Obi-Wan a few months before RotS?
Is that why in the CW movie he ltierally whooped her ass with a smile on his face, and she couldn' teven scratch him when he was using his fists and she was using her lightsaber?
The CW movie is a lot earlier in the war than a few months...
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
Wait, does anyone really think that Ventress was a match for Obi-Wan a few months before RotS?Is that why in the CW movie he ltierally [b]whooped her ass with a smile on his face
, and she couldn' teven scratch him when he was using his fists and she was using her lightsaber?The CW movie is a lot earlier in the war than a few months... [/B]
I haven't seen the movie, Blax. But hey - thanks. If that's true, that just furthers my point.
Yeah, he embarrassed her. It was kind of disghusting, actually, because I like ventress and it was kind of sad to see Obi-Wan defeat her with so little effort.
No matter what anyone says or how you look at it, Obi-Wan was owning the shit out of her.