who will win pein vs madara

Because Madara seemed to be pleased that Itachi was dead, and he listened to Itachi's order of Konoha being off-bounds to akatsuki members, when he died he told the akatsuki members that "Now that Itachi is dead, Konoha is now NOT off-limits" then right away an attack against Konoha began, meaning that Madara from the beginning wanted to take action against Konoha but couldn't because Itachi said so.

Also Itachi refers to him as basically inferior, he says:

"Today, Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self. He's no longer worthy of being considered the greatest Uchiha"

Which means he's not as powerful as he was, and cannot be considered the greatest and Itachi refers to him as "pathetic".

Putting all that together it seems that Itachi > Madara.
(since Madara is not as powerful as he was anymore.)

Thats my opinion anyway.

If you take into account when Itachi called him pathetic..It was also when he said he needed Sasuke's eyes to become powerful. And with Sasuke's eyes he would surpass Madara.

As for the Konoha thing. Can't launch a surprise attack when one of your men would probably get a message to them telling them about said attack. Itachi isn't there to warn Konoha. And didn't Itachi make a deal with Madara anyway by killing the Uchiha? Madara tried to attack Konoha twice anyway and failed. Sure the third time is the charm but still. I doubt it will be for Madara.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to Madara when he was "The invincible Madara" and not the "pathetic shell" of today, but anyway he was bullshitting about taking sasukes eyes in the first place.

That would make no difference, all they did was send Pain in, its not like they had to prepare for a surprise attack, just tell Pain and he'd get the job done, but Madara would have to face the wrath of Itachi.

I think it was more their agreement on the help of killing all the Uchiha that kept Madara from attacking Konoha.

And Itachi put all these fail-safes to protect Sasuke from Madara..if he was more powerful why would he need to do that?

Not to mention that apparently Madara didn't teach Itachi everything so that he wouldn't be able to kill him...

Itachi wanted to kill all the Uchiha for peace purposes.

It wasn't like, Itachi didn't want to do it but did it on a promise that Madara wouldn't hurt Konoha, since Itachi did want to do it in the first place.

He put the fail-safes in Sasuke, because he knows his own fate, if Itachi wasn't dead Madara wouldn't touch Sasuke.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Not to mention that apparently Madara didn't teach Itachi everything so that he wouldn't be able to kill him...

But Itachi is different, he doesn't like to fight, and is a peaceful man, unless he has to fight.

The wrath of Itachi?

Madara can just lol at Itachi and dodge all of his attacks, which would just make Itachi expend all his chakra.

Itachi was there to keep Konaha updated on Akatsuki's movements and Madara knew it, if he tried to attack Konaha Itachi would have been able to warn them. And they could have prepared for an assault.

If Itachi could of killed Madara, he would have, why go through all the preparation to keep Sasuke away from him after Itachi dies when he could just kill Madara himself?

Originally posted by Terryc250
Itachi wanted to kill all the Uchiha for peace purposes.

It wasn't like, Itachi didn't want to do it but did it on a promise that Madara wouldn't hurt Konoha, since Itachi did want to do it in the first place.

He put the fail-safes in Sasuke, because he knows his own fate, if Itachi wasn't dead Madara wouldn't touch Sasuke.

Orochimaru didn't teach Sasuke everything just to be killed by him either lol.

But Itachi is different, he doesn't like to fight, and is a peaceful man, unless he has to fight.

And Itachi knew Madara would come for him. That's why he put all the fail-safes in place. If he could have beaten Madara you would think he'd have done it already to keep him away from Sasuke. Or tried anyway if he even thought he could.

Too bad Itachi doesn't only have physical attacks, and i'm sure there are ways to get around his jutsu that Itachi knows of.

Akatsuki doesn't need to prepare for an assault =\ they just send Pain, and thats it.. just like how it happened, Itachi is out of the picture, Madara says Konoha is not off-limits anymore, and Pain is now attacking Konoha.

Why would he kill Madara though? I'm pretty sure Itachi agree's with the Akatsuki philosophy and believes its for the better of peace, he would sacrifice anything for the peace the only thing he wouldn't sacrifice was his brother, and thats why he doesn't want Madara messing around with Sasuke.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Too bad Itachi doesn't only have physical attacks, and i'm sure there are ways to get around his jutsu that Itachi knows of.

Akatsuki doesn't need to prepare for an assault =\ they just send Pain, and thats it.. just like how it happened, Itachi is out of the picture, Madara says Konoha is not off-limits anymore, and Pain is now attacking Konoha.

Why would he kill Madara though? I'm pretty sure Itachi agree's with the Akatsuki philosophy and believes its for the better of peace, he would sacrifice anything for the peace the only thing he wouldn't sacrifice was his brother, and thats why he doesn't want Madara messing around with Sasuke.

2. Really? So going by that, why not have Pein just pwn Itachi in the ass then, if Pein is so uber he can take on a prepared Konaha, Pein just kinda busted into an unprepared Konaha and pwned people not ready. If they knew he was coming, you think it wouldn't of made a difference?

3. ...Akatsuki's philosophy is centered around world domination, destroying Konaha, and destroying countries in a twisted method to balance power...How the hell would that fit in with Itachi and his view on life?

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. Madara can literally warp his entire body into another dimension, and possesses a superior Sharingan to Itachi's. Ways to get around his jutsu? Speculation.

2. Really? So going by that, why not have Pein just pwn Itachi in the ass then, if Pein is so uber he can take on a prepared Konaha, Pein just kinda busted into an unprepared Konaha and pwned people not ready. If they knew he was coming, you think it wouldn't of made a difference?

3. ...Akatsuki's philosophy is centered around world domination, destroying Konaha, and destroying countries in a twisted method to balance power...How the hell would that fit in with Itachi and his view on life?

Probably because Pein can't, Itachi at full-power and not diseased is probably crazy, even fighting with no intent to kill, diseased, and after giving his powers to naruto, he still had more feats then Pein vs Jiraiya, and Pein vs Konoha. I'm saying if Madara wanted Konoha attacked, he could've just told Pain without Itachi knowing, since they meet in seclusion most of the time anyway, but then Madara would have to face Itachi.

No, their philosophy isn't destroying any countries or Konoha(only Sasuke's goal is to destroy Konoha), its merely taking over them, but after taking over the world with the powers of the Bijuu, wars will ceast to exist.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Of course theres ways to get around it, its not really speculation, guarantee you 100% by the end of the series we'll find out.

Probably because Pein can't, Itachi at full-power and not diseased is probably crazy, even fighting with no intent to kill, diseased, and after giving his powers to naruto, he still had more feats then Pein vs Jiraiya, and Pein vs Konoha. I'm saying if Madara wanted Konoha attacked, he could've just told Pain without Itachi knowing, since they meet in seclusion most of the time anyway, but then Madara would have to face Itachi.

No, their philosophy isn't destroying any countries or Konoha(only Sasuke's goal is to destroy Konoha), its merely taking over them, but after taking over the world with the powers of the Bijuu, wars will ceast to exist.

Okay so now Itachi > Pein to. What did Itachi do that's put him so far up on the scale? He even admitted Jiraiya was his superior..and we seen how well the Pein/Jiraiya fight went. Itachi also didn't want the rest of the village getting involved when he fought Kakashi..Pein's taking them all head on. And at a stronger point in time.

Pein wants to create bombs to destroy villages...He wants to make people suffer pain like he did. The whole affairs of Akatsuki are exactly the opposite of what Itachi has been portrayed as by Madara and by the way he acts.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Of course theres ways to get around it, its not really speculation, guarantee you 100% by the end of the series we'll find out.

Probably because Pein can't, Itachi at full-power and not diseased is probably crazy, even fighting with no intent to kill, diseased, and after giving his powers to naruto, he still had more feats then Pein vs Jiraiya, and Pein vs Konoha. I'm saying if Madara wanted Konoha attacked, he could've just told Pain without Itachi knowing, since they meet in seclusion most of the time anyway, but then Madara would have to face Itachi.

No, their philosophy isn't destroying any countries or Konoha(only Sasuke's goal is to destroy Konoha), its merely taking over them, but after taking over the world with the powers of the Bijuu, wars will ceast to exist.

2. Oh really? Pein can rip out souls with a grab, deflect and absorb attacks, destroy large buildings with arm missiles, disrupt chakra with those rods, use his Rinnegan to analyze shit in a Byakugan fashion, summon a variety of creatures, hell, Pein is pretty much haxx. Itachi did not want to fight the whole village of Konoha...Cause they would beat his ass. Madara would have had to face Itachi? Madara has the same Sharingan Itachi has, but more powerful and doesn't shove a dick up his chakra everytime he uses it, and as for Genjutsu...Madara could use his Sharingan's hypnotic powers to control the frickin Kyuubi. And Susano and Amaterasu? Easily avoidable by Madara. Hell, he already took Amaterasu, and he was not even engaged in battle.

3. Pein wants to make a weapon which will destroy entire COUNTRIES. Madara wants Konoha to burn as well.

Originally posted by Kento
Madara will probably be beaten by PIS not getting around his hax move.

Okay so now Itachi > Pein to. What did Itachi do that's put him so far up on the scale? He even admitted Jiraiya was his superior..and we seen how well the Pein/Jiraiya fight went. Itachi also didn't want the rest of the village getting involved when he fought Kakashi..Pein's taking them all head on. And at a stronger point in time.

Pein wants to create bombs to destroy villages...He wants to make people suffer pain like he did. The whole affairs of Akatsuki are exactly the opposite of what Itachi has been portrayed as by Madara and by the way he acts.

What has Pain done? Itachi never did admit Jiraiya was more powerful then him, thats a big misconception that people have if you take a look at the quote, you can see that they aren't referring to anyone in particular

Kisame: Perhaps you can fight him evenly... but I cannot. He's too strong.
Itachi: Yes. If we both fought him, we would both be killed... or in a good case, we might kill him, but we'd die along with him. Even if we had more men, that result would not change.
Kisame: His caretaker is a legendary Sannin. Konoha's Uchiha Clan and the Mist's Seven Shinobi-gatana seem petty before his name.
Itachi: Yes, but... All strong opponents have a weakness.

If you look carefully, it talks about "Him" then Kisame talks about someone else, and that someone ELSE is Jiraiya.

But if ALOT of manga translations have corrected this, because it causes alot of misconception, if you go take a look at most manga translations you'll see that they re-translated it.

Kisame even says after Itachi and Kisame leave the frogs stomach "why did we leave, you could've.." most likely Kisame said you could've beat him, but Itachi says he needed to rest.

Again, Akatsuki's goal is world domination, its not to destroy everything, well of course there will be sacrifices at first but afterwards it'll all be peaceful, and itachi is willing to make that sacrifice as i've said, the only thing he wouldn't sacrifice is his brother.

2. Oh really? Pein can rip out souls with a grab, deflect and absorb attacks, destroy large buildings with arm missiles, disrupt chakra with those rods, use his Rinnegan to analyze shit in a Byakugan fashion, summon a variety of creatures, hell, Pein is pretty much haxx. Itachi did not want to fight the whole village of Konoha...Cause they would beat his ass. Madara would have had to face Itachi? Madara has the same Sharingan Itachi has, but more powerful and doesn't shove a dick up his chakra everytime he uses it, and as for Genjutsu...Madara could use his Sharingan's hypnotic powers to control the frickin Kyuubi. And Susano and Amaterasu? Easily avoidable by Madara. Hell, he already took Amaterasu, and he was not even engaged in battle.

3. Pein wants to make a weapon which will destroy entire COUNTRIES. Madara wants Konoha to burn as well.

If Madara wanted to burn Konoha why didn't he do it? If he can defeat itachi why does he obey Itachi order of not touching Konoha?

Maybe, maybe not. I still think Madara's death is going to be PIS not getting around his haxx.
Itachi and Kisame were talking about Jiraiya. They weren't talking about Naruto when Itachi said they might be able to take him.

Pein has a lot more to help him out than Itachi or Madara. His ability to not be hit it seems, and to absorb any jutsu no matter how powerful are big things in his favor. And just because Madara was a pathetic shell of his former self doesn't mean he was weaker than Itachi. Just not like he was before the 4th stopped him. You can call somebody a pathetic shell and they still be stronger than you if they were stronger than they were or if his personality is changed. Itachi also says he's not worthy to be the strongest or something along those lines. Hinting that Madara is more powerful than he.

Madara tried twice...and lost twice. That could be a good reason why he didn't. And he got revenge on the Uchiha at the price of leaving Konoha alone. Just because he's the villain doesn't mean he can't be a man of his word to leave Konoha alone.

Originally posted by Kento
Maybe, maybe not. I still think Madara's death is going to be PIS not getting around his haxx.
Itachi and Kisame were talking about Jiraiya. They weren't talking about Naruto when Itachi said they might be able to take him.

Pein has a lot more to help him out than Itachi or Madara. His ability to not be hit it seems, and to absorb any jutsu no matter how powerful are big things in his favor. And just because Madara was a pathetic shell of his former self doesn't mean he was weaker than Itachi. Just not like he was before the 4th stopped him. You can call somebody a pathetic shell and they still be stronger than you if they were stronger than they were or if his personality is changed. Itachi also says he's not worthy to be the strongest or something along those lines. Hinting that Madara is more powerful than he.

Madara tried twice...and lost twice. That could be a good reason why he didn't. And he got revenge on the Uchiha at the price of leaving Konoha alone. Just because he's the villain doesn't mean he can't be a man of his word to leave Konoha alone.

No he wasn't talking about Jiraiya, if he was talking about Jiraiya he wouldn't have changed the statement and go and go from talking about "him" then referring to "his" as somebody else (that somebody else is Jiraiya) that was a mistranslation that is fixed in newer translated manga's due to the misconception everyone got, again even Kisame says afterwards that Itachi could've beaten him and questions why they left, but Itachi needed to rest.

Pein cannot absorb any jutsu, he even gets affected by Genjutsu, even Jiraiya was able to affect him with Genjutsu, and i highly doubt he can absorb amaterasu.

Itachi says "Today, Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self. He's no longer worthy of being considered the greatest Uchiha"
meaning today, he's just a pathetic shell of what he used to be, he no longer is worthy of having the title of of the greatest Uchiha.
Going by that, he is alot weaker and isn't considered the greatest Uchiha anymore.

Madara ISN'T a man of his word thats the thing, he waited until AFTER Itachi died to disobey him. If he was a man of his word he'd stick by his word. Thats all just speculation anyway.

All we know is, Itachi made it so that Madara didn't harm Konoha, and Madara waited until after Itachi was dead before he took action against Konoha. Also, Madara didn't touch Sasuke until after Itachi was dead as well.

That whole conversation was about Jiraiya. Who else would they be talking about? They weren't talking about Naruto.

His absorbing is like a dispell. He can absorb any ninjutsu despite the level. He could absorb Amaterasu. At least according the the databook.

Well no need to keep a bargain after the guy died now is there. And Itachi only knew what Madara wanted him to. I seriously doubt Itachi even knew Madara's power. He even says in the same statement that Madara's sharingan power is just as strong as ever. He also says he was going to take Sasuke's eyes to surpass him. Meaning he hadn't surpassed him.

He went after Sasuke because he wants something from Sasuke. It's a lot easier to manipulate Sasuke without his hate and want to kill Itachi. It's also easier to manipulate Sasuke by telling him the truth about his brother and implanting thoughts to destroy Konoha. I highly doubt Madara cared if Itachi was alive or not. He didn't send Pein to destroy Konoha either. He sent Pein to get Naruto. He wants to destroy Konoha himself. He's failed twice. That's probably a good reason he hasn't done it again. That and Itachi made a deal of sorts with him that night they met didn't he? Which he probably only planned on keeping as long as Itachi was alive not after his death.

Originally posted by Kento
That whole conversation was about Jiraiya. Who else would they be talking about? They weren't talking about Naruto.

His absorbing is like a dispell. He can absorb any ninjutsu despite the level. He could absorb Amaterasu. At least according the the databook.

Well no need to keep a bargain after the guy died now is there. And Itachi only knew what Madara wanted him to. I seriously doubt Itachi even knew Madara's power. He even says in the same statement that Madara's sharingan power is just as strong as ever. He also says he was going to take Sasuke's eyes to surpass him. Meaning he hadn't surpassed him.

He went after Sasuke because he wants something from Sasuke. It's a lot easier to manipulate Sasuke without his hate and want to kill Itachi. It's also easier to manipulate Sasuke by telling him the truth about his brother and implanting thoughts to destroy Konoha. I highly doubt Madara cared if Itachi was alive or not. He didn't send Pein to destroy Konoha either. He sent Pein to get Naruto. He wants to destroy Konoha himself. He's failed twice. That's probably a good reason he hasn't done it again. That and Itachi made a deal of sorts with him that night they met didn't he? Which he probably only planned on keeping as long as Itachi was alive not after his death.

Which means Madara isn't a man of his word.. Only one of Peins body was able to absorb Ninjutsu but they are still able to be caught in genjutsu, which Itachi is a master of catching people in.. what databook btw?

That whole taking Sasuke's sharingan for whatever reason line was a BS line anyway, he said surpass the invincible madara, which i'm guessing he was referring to when he was in his younger days, but not the pathetic shell that he is today.

Naruto is in Konoha and thats why he couldn't get Naruto, because Itachi put konoha off-bounds. Then right when Itachi died he announced Konoha is not off-limits anymore and Pein attacks. There was no deal, thats just speculation like i said, all we know is that Madara didn't do anything as long as Itachi was there, and only did things after Itachi died, if Madara was still so powerful as he was i dont think itachi was refer to him like he was inferior.

Even so. Kisame still says they are petty to Jiraiya. And Itachi refers to him being stronger. Or it could just be they just switched from talking about Jiraiya after talking about his strength to Naruto back to Jiraiya.

The 3rd one I think. It should be the only one that has anything to do with him. The newest one. There is also a difference between Jiraiya's genjutsu and Itachi's. Itachi's is sight-based while Jiraiya's was sound-based. Pein also wouldn't be caught off-guard with Itachi and genjutsu. After all..Jiraiya wasn't a genjutsu user so he could catch Pein off-guard.

Taking Sasuke's sharingan was a lie sure. That doesn't mean the line about Itachi being weaker was. Madara being a shell of his former self didn't have anything to do with Madara's power. He states that Madara's alive and that his power is still just as strong. I think it's more his personality and everything that's become a shell of his former self. That he's changed into something that maybe once had a noble cause to somebody scheming and using everybody. Now he's just somebody who wants revenge and has forgotten the reason. At least that was my take on it. Maybe not that exactly but it was more about Madara in general not his power. Itachi wanted his brother safe if he wanted his brother safe from Madra, and was so much stronger than Madara then he could have killed him yet he didn't. Instead he resorted to giving Naruto a new ability.

Naruto has been all over not just in Konoha. Madara could have attacked him plenty of times. Itachi and Kisame went after Naruto but was stopped by Jiraiya. They didn't really need him then though. Now he's the last..or well one of the last two needed before Pein's goal is completed. Even before Itachi died Tobi told Pein to capture Naruto.

Originally posted by Kento
Even so. Kisame still says they are petty to Jiraiya. And Itachi refers to him being stronger. Or it could just be they just switched from talking about Jiraiya after talking about his strength to Naruto back to Jiraiya.

The 3rd one I think. It should be the only one that has anything to do with him. The newest one. There is also a difference between Jiraiya's genjutsu and Itachi's. Itachi's is sight-based while Jiraiya's was sound-based. Pein also wouldn't be caught off-guard with Itachi and genjutsu. After all..Jiraiya wasn't a genjutsu user so he could catch Pein off-guard.

Taking Sasuke's sharingan was a lie sure. That doesn't mean the line about Itachi being weaker was. Madara being a shell of his former self didn't have anything to do with Madara's power. He states that Madara's alive and that his power is still just as strong. I think it's more his personality and everything that's become a shell of his former self. That he's changed into something that maybe once had a noble cause to somebody scheming and using everybody. Now he's just somebody who wants revenge and has forgotten the reason. At least that was my take on it. Maybe not that exactly but it was more about Madara in general not his power. Itachi wanted his brother safe if he wanted his brother safe from Madra, and was so much stronger than Madara then he could have killed him yet he didn't. Instead he resorted to giving Naruto a new ability.

Naruto has been all over not just in Konoha. Madara could have attacked him plenty of times. Itachi and Kisame went after Naruto but was stopped by Jiraiya. They didn't really need him then though. Now he's the last..or well one of the last two needed before Pein's goal is completed. Even before Itachi died Tobi told Pein to capture Naruto. [/B]