who will win pein vs madara

Originally posted by Terryc250
I'd say Kisame is one of the strongest if not the most powerful of the 7 swordsman, and speaking bluntly, Kisame is Itachi's *****, takes orders from Itachi and seems to always praise his power.

Itachi is much smarter then Jiraiya, and more advanced genjutsu users with so many different ways of catching people in genjutsu, even if Pein had his guard up i'm sure Itachi could figure out a way to put atleast a couple of his bodies in genjutsu.

He didn't state that madara's power is still the same, everything he said positive prasing Madara was about the past Madara, and everything he said about present Madara is about how pathetic he is now, and that he's not worthy of being considered the greatest Uchiha anymore. He didn't want to kill Madara, i believe Itachi agreed with his views and the sacrifices needed to achieve the greater good, and thats why he collaberated with him in the extermination of Uchiha and joining akatsuki, like i said i think Itachi is willing to make the sacrifices the only thing he wouldn't sacrifice was his brother, and thats why he put on the anti-madara eyes incase Madara betrayed him and went for his brother.

Yes he told Pein that but Pein couldn't do anything until Itachi was dead because Naruto was believed to be in Konoha in which Itachi put off-limits to any Akatsuki members other then himself. But if Madara is so much superior then Itachi why does he obey Itachi's order? The "Madara is a man of his word" thing is not true because he didn't obey his word.

Doesn't mean Itachi is the strongest just because Kisame is weaker.

And Itachi being a genjutsu user isn't going to be able to surprise Pein with a genjutsu. Jiraiya has the element of surprise. He also used a sound based genjutsu. All of Itachi's are sight based. A sound based one would be a lot easier to trap somebody in. Even more so when they aren't expecting a non-genjutsu user to use one.

Itachi even says that after his defeat at VoTE that Madara remains alive and well as does his eyes and power He also talks about needing more power to surpass the 'invincible and immortal' Madara. He may be lying about wanting Sasuke's eyes but I highly doubt he is lying about anything else. Itachi also knew what Madara was going to do. It wasn't a just incase thing. It was a he knows Madara was going to do it. And he doesn't have the same views. Madara is out for revenge against Konoha. Itachi was out to save Konoha. Madara even said to Sasuke that he was looking for a war when Itachi found him and made him an offer. Revenge against the Uchiha but to leave Konoha alone. He got half of what he wanted so why would he attack Konoha after making a deal? It never says the full terms of the deal either just they made one. Madara could have made the deal until Itachi died being immortal it wouldn't matter how long he had to wait.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Only to defenseless pussies, he wouldn't dream of doing it to Jiraiya or Itachi, Itachi could probably take out 10 buildings with a swipe of the sword of totsuka, Itachi would take out Peins bodies one by one until theres none left. Of course itachi doesn't want to fight Konoha, remember he's not actually that evil, nor does he even like to fight unless he has to. Madara is in Itachi's words "pathatic" Madara was already suspecting itachi of doing something like that, and had his guard up.

If Madara wanted to burn Konoha why didn't he do it? If he can defeat itachi why does he obey Itachi order of not touching Konoha?

Gee, it couldn't be because he has tried before, and failed? Hell, he had the Kyuubi back then. It was not an "order" first of all, Itachi came to MADARA begging for help to kill the Uchiha clan, but wanted Madara to leave Konoha alone while doing it, Madara, who wanted revenge against his own clan especially, agreed.

Itachi did not agree with Akatsuki or its goals, if he did, he wouldn't have been a spy for Konoha. So therefore, if he could of killed MAdara and prevented his bro from joining them, he would of.

Originally posted by Kento
Doesn't mean Itachi is the strongest just because Kisame is weaker.

And Itachi being a genjutsu user isn't going to be able to surprise Pein with a genjutsu. Jiraiya has the element of surprise. He also used a sound based genjutsu. All of Itachi's are sight based. A sound based one would be a lot easier to trap somebody in. Even more so when they aren't expecting a non-genjutsu user to use one.

Itachi even says that after his defeat at VoTE that Madara remains alive and well as does his eyes and power He also talks about needing more power to surpass the 'invincible and immortal' Madara. He may be lying about wanting Sasuke's eyes but I highly doubt he is lying about anything else. Itachi also knew what Madara was going to do. It wasn't a just incase thing. It was a he knows Madara was going to do it. And he doesn't have the same views. Madara is out for revenge against Konoha. Itachi was out to save Konoha. Madara even said to Sasuke that he was looking for a war when Itachi found him and made him an offer. Revenge against the Uchiha but to leave Konoha alone. He got half of what he wanted so why would he attack Konoha after making a deal? It never says the full terms of the deal either just they made one. Madara could have made the deal until Itachi died being immortal it wouldn't matter how long he had to wait. [/B]

Actually that whole entire phrase about wanting Sasukes eyes is a lie, when Madara talks to Sasuke, and explains everything

Sasuke goes Itachi told me everything;
It goes on the flashback about Itachi talking about Madara and saying "the only person who can surpass the invincible Madara and achieve true immortality is me"
You framed the uchiha, you and itachi were toying with us all

Madara goes on to say that its a lie, and that itachi didn't want sasuke to learn the truth so he fed him a false story

Not all of his attacks were used to fight defenseless pussies, his rockets, his ability to deflect all attacks, his rods, his power to absorb chakra, and his various other uber haxx's would work on Itachi, specifically the rods, if Itachi were stabbed by even one, his chakra would be fvcked up, and more than one would stab him. Totsuka could not take out 10 buildings, since, you know, it is not a physical sword, and Susano drains his chakra so much that using it would be very not good. You say that Itachi would be fine with destroying a country if it meant world peace, yet he is not willing to sacrifice a single village? You are contradicting yourself. Madara is in Itachi's words also,"An invincible immortal." And don't play some BS saying he was talking about the Madara years ago, as he used the present tense to refer to him. Madara was not suspecting it, he even showed surprise at it.

Theres really nothing Pein can do to Itachi if he unleashed Susanoo, none of his attacks will work, his little rod would do absolutely nothing

Heres the direct quote from the 3rd Databook of Susanoo

""Amaterasu", representing "the material world and light" and "Tsukuyomi", symbolizing "the spiritual world and darkness", are two jutsu that can only be used by the ones who awakened the "Mangekyou Sharingan", the almighty eyes that can see through anything. The power of the violent god resides in the ones who are able control both jutsu: that is Susanoo. The chakra becomes tangible and takes the shape of the great, strong belligerent god. His fighting spirit doesn't abate until he has destroyed all the enemies before him.
Susanoo possesses a flawless offense and defense thanks to the "incorporeal tools" he holds in both of his hands. The "Sword of Totsuka" in his right hand cuts down any opponent, while the "Mirror of Yata" in his left hand rejects any attack. Material, incorporeal, ninjutsu, physical attacks: all these have no meaning in front of the god."

"The sake coming out of the gourd takes the shape of a sword, the Sword of Totsuka. The spirits absorbed by the sword also get sealed inside of the gourd."
"Totsuka no Tsurugi (Sword of Totsuka) - It's like a Sword of Kusanagi enhanced with the power to send the people it stabs to a world of illusions similar to the dream of a drunken person and seal them for eternity. It has a built-in sealing jutsu."
"Yata no Kagami (Mirror of Yata) - An incorporeal shield. It possesses all the chakra qualities (elements) and is able to render any attack vain by changing its own quality accordingly."

Just because the sword is not physical it doesn't mean it cannot cut down physical things:

One swipe and it cut off 7 giant hydra snakes, while with the Susanoo covering Itachi, Pein won't beable to harm him. Hell, even Sasukes ultimate thunder technique couldn't put a scratch on Itachi and Susanoo didn't even fully take its form
Now THAT is ub3r h4xx!

Itachi was diseased dead when he fought Sasuke, and already givin his power to Naruto, Madara said:
"Disease was eating away at him from the inside and he knew his time was short. He pumped himself full of all kinds of medicine to keep himself alive.."

Yet even still he was able to pull off lots of jutsus, amaterasu, tsukiyomi, Susasnoo, if it was full-powered Itachi, Itachi would definately take out Peins bodies, not neccesarily kill Pein himself, but he'll take out his bodies.

The goal of akatsuki is world domination, thats what Pein explained to the entire organization, Itachi most likely agrees as he probably thinks its for the greater good in the end, but he knows Konoha should be safe because of his presence. Although he still didn't trust Madara and thats why he put the fail-safes just if the slightest chance Madara goes after Sasuke and betrays his word after he dies.

Gee, it couldn't be because he has tried before, and failed? Hell, he had the Kyuubi back then. It was not an "order" first of all, Itachi came to MADARA begging for help to kill the Uchiha clan, but wanted Madara to leave Konoha alone while doing it, Madara, who wanted revenge against his own clan especially, agreed.

Itachi did not agree with Akatsuki or its goals, if he did, he wouldn't have been a spy for Konoha. So therefore, if he could of killed MAdara and prevented his bro from joining them, he would of.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Theres really nothing Pein can do to Itachi if he unleashed Susanoo, none of his attacks will work, his little rod would do absolutely nothing

Heres the direct quote from the 3rd Databook of Susanoo

""Amaterasu", representing "the material world and light" and "Tsukuyomi", symbolizing "the spiritual world and darkness", are two jutsu that can only be used by the ones who awakened the "Mangekyou Sharingan", the almighty eyes that can see through anything. The power of the violent god resides in the ones who are able control both jutsu: that is Susanoo. The chakra becomes tangible and takes the shape of the great, strong belligerent god. His fighting spirit doesn't abate until he has destroyed all the enemies before him.
Susanoo possesses a flawless offense and defense thanks to the "incorporeal tools" he holds in both of his hands. The "Sword of Totsuka" in his right hand cuts down any opponent, while the [b]"Mirror of Yata" in his left hand rejects any attack. Material, incorporeal, ninjutsu, physical attacks: all these have no meaning in front of the god."

"The sake coming out of the gourd takes the shape of a sword, the Sword of Totsuka. The spirits absorbed by the sword also get sealed inside of the gourd."
"Totsuka no Tsurugi (Sword of Totsuka) - It's like a Sword of Kusanagi enhanced with the power to send the people it stabs to a world of illusions similar to the dream of a drunken person and seal them for eternity. It has a built-in sealing jutsu."
"Yata no Kagami (Mirror of Yata) - An incorporeal shield. It possesses all the chakra qualities (elements) and is able to render any attack vain by changing its own quality accordingly."

Just because the sword is not physical it doesn't mean it cannot cut down physical things:

One swipe and it cut off 7 giant hydra snakes, while with the Susanoo covering Itachi, Pein won't beable to harm him. Hell, even Sasukes ultimate thunder technique couldn't put a scratch on Itachi and Susanoo didn't even fully take its form
Now THAT is ub3r h4xx!

Itachi was diseased dead when he fought Sasuke, and already givin his power to Naruto, Madara said:
"Disease was eating away at him from the inside and he knew his time was short. He pumped himself full of all kinds of medicine to keep himself alive.."

Yet even still he was able to pull off lots of jutsus, amaterasu, tsukiyomi, Susasnoo, if it was full-powered Itachi, Itachi would definately take out Peins bodies, not neccesarily kill Pein himself, but he'll take out his bodies.

The goal of akatsuki is world domination, thats what Pein explained to the entire organization, Itachi most likely agrees as he probably thinks its for the greater good in the end, but he knows Konoha should be safe because of his presence. Although he still didn't trust Madara and thats why he put the fail-safes just if the slightest chance Madara goes after Sasuke and betrays his word after he dies.

Umm.. no.. He didn't go begging Madara to help him kill the clan haha, Madara wanted to kill the clan, and Itachi offered to help him with his goal on one condition, if he didn't make moves on Konoha.

He wasn't a spy for Konoha... where did you get that from? The only information Konoha got on Akatsuki was what Jiraiya told them, infact Itachi was protecting Akatsuki and their goals, when Kakashi knew about Akatsuki and their goals Itachi was surprised and was going to take Kakashi. [/B]

Itachi after one Amaterasu, and one Tsukiyomi while healthy was tired. Yet he can use all these uber haxx jutsus one after the other in a fight with Pein, who also has uber haxx, but does not tire himself out with it. One of the rods hits Itachi, his chakra is fvcked, and there goes his haxx.

Itachi agrees with blowing up countries, starting and then ending wars with Biju, and killing whole villages so that people can feel pain like Pein? Cause that is pretty much Pein's goal. That totally contradicts Itachi's own beliefs, and saying it doesn't is idiotic, Itachi was a completely peaceful man, who never liked to fight anyone, if he wanted Akatsuki's goals to actually succeed, he would have killed Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, and Kurenei and then tryed to fight Jiraiya, since by your own words he is fine with blowing up countries to achieve peace.

Yeah he did, he found Madara and asked for HIS help to kill his clan, then join Akatsuki, but under the pretense that Konoha be safe. Why screw up a deal and lose one of your strongest allies? Madara can avoid all of Itachi's attacks, this is fact. When he fought Team 7 and others, he toyed with them.

Itachi was going to take Kakashi? I suppose that is why he let him live?

Question is why did Itachi hate Madara so? He helped him kill his entire clan, true. But Itachi agreed with it. Madara didn't tell Sasuke the whole truth.

Anyhow, Pein should win. He's not only a master in every field of ninjutsu, but also the one with the Rin'negan. The first known to have had it since the founder of ninjutsu.

And since ninjutsu seemed to be an evil thing in Jiraiya's story, he's the root of it all.

Some people will argue that the Eternal Mangekyo is more powerful but fact is--Pein haven't lost a single battle with the Rin'negan. Madara had the eternal Mangekyo against Hashirama, and lost.

Pein has also never fought anyone noteworthy other than Jiraiya(who Pein admits would have killed him if he found out the secret of the Six Paths of Pain) and Hanzo, who only beat a younger, weaker Sannin.

And we have no idea HOW Madara was beaten by Hashirama, for all we know he controlled the Kyuubi and made it attack Madara.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Pein has also never fought anyone noteworthy other than Jiraiya(who Pein admits would have killed him if he found out the secret of the Six Paths of Pain) and Hanzo, who only beat a younger, weaker Sannin.

And we have no idea HOW Madara was beaten by Hashirama, for all we know he controlled the Kyuubi and made it attack Madara.

this is true but i think if madara does understand the six path of pein, pein will beat him but then again we dont kno everything bout madara's and pein's powers

Well we know Madara has the most powerful Sharingan, we know his jutsu makes him as fast as light(at least Zetsu compares him to it), we know it allows him to allow any attack to pass through him, and we know his Sharingan controlled the Kyuubi.

tru tru but i just think he has a few more tricks in his sleve but i dont think it will b a fair fight cause pein will probly call on his other forms if he is gettin beat

Madara, and Pein > Swordsmen also. I'm also pretty sure any of the Hokage's minus Tsunade are > Swordsmen also. Being stronger than Kisame doesn't make Itachi the strongest in the series.

Pein doesn't exactly have to look at Itachi from the front. He can have one all around and the ones in front won't need to see. And it's not like catching one or two in a genjutsu is going to help him at all when he has to fight six. Not to mention the spamming of summons. With sight you can only do what's in front or looking at you. Sound it doesn't matter and you can't block sound in the middle of a fight as easily anyway.

It's says 'Alive and well as does his eyes and their power.' He also calls him 'an invincible immortal he has to surpass' more or less. He talks in the present tense both times. He's not talking about the past tense then. Even after calling him pathetic he still calls him superior in power. Being pathetic doesn't always have to do with power.

He said Itachi was lying about him using Kyuubi to attack Konoha. He never says Itachi is stronger than him.

Just because Madara says something to Sasuke, who he's using anyway, doesn't make it the truth. Itachi may have been trying to come off psycho but I'm sure a lot more truth, minus the stealing his eyes, came from Itachi not Madara.

Sure there is. Just summon more bodies. It's not like Itachi is going to be able to get Nagato.
And since the defense is a mirror how is it going to deal with an attack from all sides. Susasnoo sounds more like it's better suited to fighting one person.

There are some bodies Itachi just won't take out. Like absorbing Pein. And probably Yaihiko Pein unless Kakashi figures out how to beat him. He'll also have to deal with multiple summons, and attacks from multiple-directions.

Madara is the leader. He called Madara his teacher. I'm also sure whatever Pein wants isn't the same as what Madara wants. He's just using Pein like he does everybody else. Itachi joined because of Madara not anything Pein had to say. Even if Pein's thoughts and what he wants to do are the exact opposite of the way Itachi has been potrayed.

Yea he got help from Madara to kill the Uchiha and in return for Madara leaving Konoha alone he got to kill the Uchiha. The whole terms of the deal is unknown though. For all we know Madara only promised to until Itachi died. Or figures that Itachi is dead the agreement is off because well why honor it with a dead man. It had nothing to do with Itachi's strength that he hadn't attacked. Maybe he just didn't want to be beaten again. And he's not exactly attacking Konoha himself anyway. He's getting Sasuke to do it. Pein just sort of took the roundabout way of looking for Naruto by destroying the village.

Read me, please.