Debating discussion thread.

Started by fangirl1013 pages
fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You seem upset with specific characters and traits, without relating them to a general principle and seeing if it would hold true. It's hard to form them into general rules that make sense when you just seem to be ranting about specific arguments on the forums that you dislike.

If that is what you think. But the arguments being presented are indicative of a trend. If it weren't a trend, then we wouldn't be here in this thread now would?

And Upset about specific Characters? What the hell.

And I didn't want to rant about specifics of anything. The way I presented them at first was very vague. Digi brought it up that I shouldn't be defensive. The arguments could be applied to a many a character.

DigiMark007 Forum Leader
Originally posted by fangirl101
Digi brought it up that I shouldn't be defensive.

That was goober, but fair enough. Just know that where ambiguities exist in interpretation, it's almost impossible to make a rule on it without squelching the very debate process that the forum is for.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
Superman holds back all of the time. There for we can't count his low showings.

No danger of that happening under the proposed rule change. Things that CIS and "in character" are the things that are being promoted, so the fact that Supes holds back will HAVE to be taken into consideration and held against him.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Silver Surfer Amps to infinity, And I've never seen him amp his strength to fight Thanos.

No one says that Surfer has an infinite amping capacity with any degree of seriousness. But removing his(or anyone else's) ability to amp his strength to a virtually unlimited degree(the proper phrasing of the ability) just because you don't like it will only lead to trouble because it's not holding true to the character being discussed. You're talking about putting our own preferences over the characters established abilities and that's wrong IMO.

And Thanos has amping abilities of his own and a higher base than Surfer so citing their confrontations as proof that he can't doesn't hold up.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Thor and Herculese Knock the Planet out of Orbit ( Silver age Hyperbole)and there are no effects shown of this happening nor is there a way for them to put it back in orbit.

I'd have to see the actual instance in question to accurately speak on it, but if it's as you say and was never actually depicted on panel in any way shape or form then I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Originally posted by fangirl101
4th world Bullshit. Saying TOAA is marvel's God is fine. But saying he's the writers and they auto win is BULL. It's a character with a name. The Moment it hits the panels in written or illustrated form.

If he's portrayed as being the writers, then how else are we to view him?

Originally posted by fangirl101
Superman Builds a city at superspeed. We see two panels and Think He's done it in a second flat. WTF. He couldn't possibly move that fast or he'd destroy the air and ignite fires and destroy what he's building. Same can be used of Gladiator hitting a planet only three times. He looks to be angry. So logic would dictate that he hit the planet more than three times in a fit and becuz the artist didn't want to bore us to death, he drew three panels.

I'd have to examine the Supes feat in question again to give my two cents on it(since it's been a while since I've seen it), but assuming things that aren't actually depicted in any way, shape, or form just because they're logical to you is a big "No No" IMO.

Originally posted by fangirl101
We should not be asked to prove Negatives. That speaks for itself.

I agree. But we also shouldn't be asked to disprove baseless claims...ever.

Originally posted by fangirl101
And repeated Scans speak for themselves. You act as if they need to be posted because someone is ignoring something. Master post trillions of the same scans. And in certain instances, Galan has even expressed circles. So it's not like one person only thinks the excessiveness is looney.

I didn't act like anything, I said that if you're talking about needless spam then I agree, but if you're talking about scans that are being dodged/ignored because they're not "good enough" for the opposition then I disagree.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Since you just had to know instances of what I was thinking about.

Dude settle down, you're not on trial here. I was just seeking a better understanding of what you were talking about so there wouldn't be any needless arguing due to a misunderstanding. If you don't want to contribute then feel free to exit the thread, but don't expect me to keep my opinion to myself about what you post in a discussion thread about what needs to be changed. And if you're unwilling to make yourself intentions clear, then you shouldn't get angry if/when someone misinterprets the meaning behind your posts.

fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
No danger of that happening under the proposed rule change. Things that CIS and "in character" are the things that are being promoted, so the fact that Supes holds back will HAVE to be taken into consideration.


And Thanos has amping abilities of his own and a higher base than Surfer so citing their confrontations as proof that he can't doesn't hold up.

I've read a lot of Silver Surfer, And Don't remember him Amping his strength. I've seen him, just like thanos, use energy to amp thier strikes. Xman has done something similiar with his TK powers.

[quote]
If he's portrayed as being the writers, then how else are we to view him?


He's being portrayed as a character in a comic. Who's name is mentioned on panel. And who's avatar has been shown on panel. Even if the avatar is never shown, the very fact that his name is mentioned on panel makes it a comic adaptation.

Dude settle down

let's not do this again Mmkay. FanGIRL. Female. Woman.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
[QUOTE=11187688]Originally posted by darthgoober
No danger of that happening under the proposed rule change. Things that CIS and "in character" are the things that are being promoted, so the fact that Supes holds back will HAVE to be taken into consideration.

Did you mean to say something here or was it something like a typing error?

Originally posted by fangirl101
I've read a lot of Silver Surfer, And Don't remember him Amping his strength. I've seen him, just like thanos, use energy to amp thier strikes. Xman has done something similiar with his TK powers. .

Well if that's your only problem with it then you should have said so, because there are scans floating around that specifically state that Surfer can amp his strength to a virtually unlimited degree. Remind me next time it comes up in an appropriate thread and I'll post one for you or just visit Surfer's respect thread to see it(I'm trying to avoid derailing this thread).

Originally posted by fangirl101
He's being portrayed as a character in a comic. Who's name is mentioned on panel. And who's avatar has been shown on panel. Even if the avatar is never shown, the very fact that his name is mentioned on panel makes it a comic adaptation. .

But if the comic adaption is something that is being written as the person writing and has control over the story, then how else are we supposed to view him and still hold true to the character?

Originally posted by fangirl101
let's not do this again Mmkay. FanGIRL. Female. Woman.

Way to ignore the rest...
Originally posted by darthgoober
*edit* settle down, you're not on trial here. I was just seeking a better understanding of what you were talking about so there wouldn't be any needless arguing due to a misunderstanding. If you don't want to contribute then feel free to exit the thread, but don't expect me to keep my opinion to myself about what you post in a discussion thread about what needs to be changed. And if you're unwilling to make yourself intentions clear, then you shouldn't get angry if/when someone misinterprets the meaning behind your posts.
fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
Did you mean to say something here or was it something like a typing error?

Well if that's your only problem with it then you should have said so, because there are scans floating around that specifically state that Surfer can amp his strength to a virtually unlimited degree. Remind me next time it comes up in an appropriate thread and I'll post one for you or just visit Surfer's respect thread to see it(I'm trying to avoid derailing this thread).

But if the comic adaption is something that is being written as the person writing and has control over the story, then how else are we supposed to view him and still hold true to the character?

Way to ignore the rest...


Just because I didn't respond to it didn't mean I ignored it. There just wasn't anything to say behind it. That sometimes happens you know.

As for TOAA, It is a character, that writes and draws the marvel u. No different than the creator of DCU who creates and makes all the rules. Even how the characters would act. Same idea. Different interpretation. Both are still fictional characters and fictional Ideas.

And I don't want to see a panel of What surfer is said to be able to do. I want to see him actually amping his PHYSICAL strength to a near unlimted degree with no outside energy absorbtion.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
Just because I didn't respond to it didn't mean I ignored it. There just wasn't anything to say behind it. That sometimes happens you know.

Yes I do, which is why I asked.

Originally posted by fangirl101
As for TOAA, It is a character, that writes and draws the marvel u. No different than the creator of DCU who creates and makes all the rules. Even how the characters would act. Same idea. Different interpretation. Both are still fictional characters and fictional Ideas.

I'm really not understanding this. I'm not saying anything about DC, I'm saying that if TOAA is portrayed as the guy writing a comic then that's what he is.

Originally posted by fangirl101
And I don't want to see a panel of What surfer is said to be able to do. I want to see him actually amping his PHYSICAL strength to a near unlimted degree with no outside energy absorbtion.

And how are you supposed to depict someone amping their strength to a virtually unlimited degree exactly? It'd be a lot like saying you want proof that GL's ring can create virtually anything via him creating virtually everything on panel. Open ended powers/power sets can't be judged that way.

fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes I do, which is why I asked.

I'm really not understanding this. I'm not saying anything about DC, I'm saying that if TOAA is portrayed as the guy writing a comic then that's what he is.

And how are you supposed to depict someone amping their strength to a virtually unlimited degree exactly? It'd be a lot like saying you want proof that GL's ring can create virtually anything via him creating virtually everything on panel.

TOAA by virtue of the name is a comic book character. Thus when it hits the paper, it is a comic character. It's a character that draws and writes the MU.

And I'm saying that Virtually means nothing with out actual proof. A description of said powers alone holds no weight if no feat is shown to back it up. Case in point. the New magog is said to be as strong as KC superman, but have as much power as Alan Scott's flame. Until he uses said powers to back up those claims, I can't go by that statement alone.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
TOAA by virtue of the name is a comic book character. Thus when it hits the paper, it is a comic character. It's a character that draws and writes the MU.

I'm still not seeing your problem here.

Originally posted by fangirl101
And I'm saying that Virtually means nothing with out actual proof. A description of said powers alone holds no weight if no feat is shown to back it up. Case in point. the New magog is said to be as strong as KC superman, but have as much power as Alan Scott's flame. Until he uses said powers to back up those claims, I can't go by that statement alone.

So we should assume that GL's are each limited to creating constructs and preforming feats that they've been depicted as creating on-panel then and ignore their basic powerset? And Takion should only be credited with manipulating the exact forms of energy that he was depicted as manipulating. And time travelers and teleporters are only capable of traveling to periods/places that they've went to in the past?

fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm still not seeing your problem here.

So we should assume that GL's are each limited to creating constructs and preforming feats that they've been depicted as creating on-panel then and ignore their basic powerset? And Takion should only be credited with manipulating the exact forms of energy that he was depicted as manipulating. And time travelers and teleporters are only capable of traveling to periods/places that they've went to in the past?


We shouldn't assume anything.

We should assume that a GL who has never made any complex constructs no matter thier power set, wont' be doing so in a forum fight.

Takion on the other hand, has been shown to manipulate several sources of energy and thus the statement that he can manipulate all energy and has limitless energy manip is believe able. Especially since he's the walking source.

Time travel may or may not be the same. maybe they can travel only so far in time. That would have to be done by a case study of the character.

As for Surfer, All I ask, is where is the feats that show he can amp his physical stats so high.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
We shouldn't assume anything.

We should assume that a GL who has never made any complex constructs no matter thier power set, wont' be doing so in a forum fight.


But should they be limited to what they've actually created or not? You can't cap one open ended ability unless you cap ALL open ended abilities if you want to retain any degree of impartiality. Virtually is virtually, if it gets tossed out then it should be tossed out completely.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Takion on the other hand, has been shown to manipulate several sources of energy and thus the statement that he can manipulate all energy and has limitless energy manip is believe able. Especially since he's the walking source.

And Surfer's stood toe to toe with many people of varying levels of strength. If Surfer's and other amper's abilities are limited to what's been shown, then so should everybody elses.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Time travel may or may not be the same. maybe they can travel only so far in time. That would have to be done by a case study of the character.

Case by case examples aren't what you've been talking about, you've been talking about completely neutering a characters given abilities at amping.

Originally posted by fangirl101
As for Surfer, All I ask, is where is the feats that show he can amp his physical stats so high.

You mean like trading punches with someone who had the strength of Gladiator w/Enigma Force?

Anyway we're going off topic and getting into specific character debates that are more appropriate to threads.

Badabing Gym rat

It seems that I wasted my time. Same circular arguments even though I specifically stated in the opening post this thread isn't for debating. I'm guessing aside from fanboys and trolls and adhering to current rules, reading the opening post of threads and understanding the stipulations of that thread is the main problem.

Unless it's shown someone amping themselves to infinity, it didn't happen. Same with Hulk's limitless strength. We can only go by what's been shown in the comic, not hyperbole.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Badabing
It seems that I wasted my time. Same circular arguments even though I specifically stated in the opening post this thread isn't for debating. I'm guessing aside from fanboys and trolls and adhering to current rules, reading the opening post of threads and understanding the stipulations of that thread is the main problem.

Unless it's shown someone amping themselves to infinity, it didn't happen. Same with Hulk's limitless strength. We can only go by what's been shown in the comic, not hyperbole.


That's my bad Bada. I have difficulty speaking in gerneral without getting lost in the specifics. Greater effort will be put into avoiding it in the future.

And I agree about "infinite strength" as the term is ridiculous(which is why no one uses it seriously), but are talking about putting a cap on Hulk's very ability to increase his strength with anger as the match goes on(like he'll never under any circumstances be angrier/stronger than he was during WWH, regardless of thread stipulations or match length) or saying that he shouldn't be considered to have infinite strength at the start of the match?

Cavalier tu quoqumber

Meh... I don't see why we need to put a cap on that, as it can be argued by anybody in the thread that Hulk wouldn't grow angrier than WWH levels, even if infinite time passed.

And we already do argue that Hulk has a base strength level (varies based on incarnation of Hulk)

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Cavalier
Meh... I don't see why we need to put a cap on that, as it can be argued by anybody in the thread that Hulk wouldn't grow angrier than WWH levels, even if infinite time passed.

And we already do argue that Hulk has a base strength level (varies based on incarnation of Hulk)


Along a similar train of thought, what about Sundipped Supes? Are we limiting his abilities to the level they were shown at after a couple of minutes even if the battleground is set inside the sun or the opening post gives him a week long sundip, or is the standard yo be that he can't be sundipped in threads for longer than has appeared on panel?

Cavalier tu quoqumber

Can't we just use logic and extrapolation for a power up like that?

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Cavalier
Can't we just use logic and extrapolation for a power up like that?

Only if we recognize his virtually unlimited ability to amp via sundip despite his never having done so.

fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
Only if we recognize his virtually unlimited ability to amp via sundip despite his never having done so.

A Week Long Sun amp means nothing unless we know the rate in which he processes a sun amp. We don't know if he'll be hundreds of times more powerful, thousands, millions.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by fangirl101
A Week Long Sun amp means nothing unless we know the rate in which he processes a sun amp. We don't know if he'll be hundreds of times more powerful, thousands, millions.

So should we limit him to OWAW levels then, despite the length of the sundip?

fangirl101 Restricted

Originally posted by darthgoober
So should we limit him to OWAW levels then, despite the length of the sundip?

What else can we do. Unless someone is going to take the time to figure out out much more powerful he was at OWAW and then do the math to figure out how powerful he would be in a week. And We dont' know if he gets a metric rate of increase or a Geo-metric rate.