Debating discussion thread.

Originally posted by fangirl101
What else can we do. Unless someone is going to take the time to figure out out much more powerful he was at OWAW and then do the math to figure out how powerful he would be in a week. And We dont' know if he gets a metric rate of increase or a Geo-metric rate.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok, your opinion is noted. I disagree of course because it constitutes ignoring a characters given abilities, but we're not supposed to debate here.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I'm not ignoring his ability to Sun amp. I know it's there. But without knowing the particulars, like how fast, how much, at what rate, how can we accurately engage in a debate about a sun amped superman?

Meh. IMO, that's not something we need a policy on... large amps should be handled on a case by case basis, and if a thread gives an amp with power that's impossible to gauge, then say so in the thread.

Originally posted by darthgoober
That's my bad Bada. I have difficulty speaking in gerneral without getting lost in the specifics. Greater effort will be put into avoiding it in the future.

And I agree about "infinite strength" as the term is ridiculous(which is why no one uses it seriously), but are talking about putting a cap on Hulk's very ability to increase his strength with anger as the match goes on(like he'll never under any circumstances be angrier/stronger than he was during WWH, regardless of thread stipulations or match length) or saying that he shouldn't be considered to have infinite strength at the start of the match?

I mean sure, there's potential for certain characters to amp themselves to an unknown and possible infinite degree but how does that translate into the debate? Because Hulk has potentially infinite strength he can't be beat? He's stronger than character X because of the possibility?

That just turns into a mess because it's never been shown. Hulk's strength has a limit, the limit being the highest strength feat he's had so far.

Same with Superman. Theoretically, a sundip could amp Superman to an infinite degree but we can only go by his highest feats via sundip.

Originally posted by Badabing
What good is a character's ability to amp to the Nth power if it's never be shown?

I mean sure, there's potential for certain characters to amp themselves to an unknown and possible infinite degree but how does that translate into the debate? Because Hulk has potentially infinite strength he can't be beat? He's stronger than character X because of the possibility?

That just turns into a mess because it's never been shown. Hulk's strength has a limit, the limit being the highest strength feat he's had so far.

Same with Superman. Theoretically, a sundip could amp Superman to an infinite degree but we can only go by his highest feats via sundip.

Same thing goes for Surfer, he can and does amp to his opponents level whether he's facing Hulk, Thor, or someone with the strength of a unipowered Gladiator. That's a significant and potentially damning ability to his opponents but if you take it away from him then you're not really debating Surfer anymore, you're debating what you think Surfer SHOULD be and unless I'm mistaken that's the kind of thing we're trying to get away from.

Amping isn't necessarily a trump card(though it often is in the Hulk's case) it's being made out to be here, it's an equalizer.

Originally posted by darthgoober
In a CBR type match you'd have a point, but luckily enough we've been talking about going off things as they're portrayed in an actual comic and because of that amping will never be the unstoppable force so many fear it will become due to WIS. But it's an integral part of the Hulk's character to eventually surpass his opponent within the realm of physical strength if sufficient time passes, you take that away from him and you're not debating the Hulk as he's portrayed in comics anymore.

Same thing goes for Surfer, he can and does amp to his opponents level whether he's facing Hulk, Thor, or someone with the strength of a unipowered Gladiator. That's a significant and potentially damning ability to his opponents but if you take it away from him then you're not really debating Surfer anymore, you're debating what you think Surfer SHOULD be and unless I'm mistaken that's the kind of thing we're trying to get away from.

Amping isn't necessarily a trump card(though it often is in the Hulk's case) it's being made out to be here, it's an equalizer.

Originally posted by fangirl101
How does Surfer amp to match Uni-powered Gladiator but not Thanos? I'm curious.

Originally posted by darthgoober
We're not supposed to get into vs debates(so I won't continue with this line of discussion), but Thanos has amping abilities of his own and a higher base than Surfer.

I see. But we don't have to get into the versus part. There are things that make me wonder. For instance, How do we know what thanos' standard strength level is? Every time I see him knocking a top tier out, it's with some cosmic gloves on. Basically energy amping his strikes. at any rate, even with new rules or clarification of rules, the debates would more than likely end as they always do. People siding with thier favorite character no matter what.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I see. But we don't have to get into the versus part. There are things that make me wonder. For instance, How do we know what thanos' standard strength level is? Every time I see him knocking a top tier out, it's with some cosmic gloves on. Basically energy amping his strikes. at any rate, even with new rules or clarification of rules, the debates would more than likely end as they always do. People siding with thier favorite character no matter what.

Dudes. Battlezone this or something.

🙄

Originally posted by darthgoober
We DON'T know how strong Thanos is except to know that he's stronger than the likes of Thor and the Hulk by a fair share due to his track record against them. Quantified feats are a rarity at herald level and above due to the fact that even the writers can't really comprehend the amount of power the characters they're writing posses, so in the end you just have to look at the evidence available and let logic and common sense be your guide. If things were as clear as you seem to be wanting then there wouldn't be the need for a debate forum because every match would be obvious at first glance and there wouldn't be anything to debate about.

Originally posted by fangirl101
So then you would say the Juggernaut is also stronger Than Thor and Hulk by a fair share due to his track record against them?

Juggernaut actually has a losing record against hulk

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Dudes. Battlezone this or something.

🙄

Originally posted by fangirl101
So then you would say the Juggernaut is also stronger Than Thor and Hulk by a fair share due to his track record against them?

Originally posted by darthgoober
We're not supposed to get into vs debates(so I won't continue with this line of discussion), but Thanos has amping abilities of his own and a higher base than Surfer.

Stop trying to derail the thread. If you want to debate this stuff then take Digi's advice.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Juggernaut actually has a losing record against hulk

Originally posted by fangirl101
When? When Hulk was amped with Celestial tech?

As goober has been saying, lets not derail this thread with vs matches so i wont go ver dis again

1. Hulk won in their first encounter, Savage hulk vs jugs
2. He won as WWH
3. He won as WH

the only time jugs has ever beaten hulk was against prof hulk.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
As goober has been saying, lets not derail this thread with vs matches so i wont go ver dis again

1. Hulk won in their first encounter, Savage hulk vs jugs
2. He won as WWH
3. He won as WH

the only time jugs has ever beaten hulk was against prof hulk.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Good luck trying to convince anyone of that. I've been repeatedly pitching the idea to settle various things but no one else seems to be willing to put their argument on the line and let others decide who's being more reasonable. But don't worry because I've already decided that I'm not letting this thread get anymore derailed.

What didn't you get about this...

Stop trying to derail the thread. If you want to debate this stuff then take Digi's advice.

Originally posted by darthgoober
In a CBR type match you'd have a point, but luckily enough we've been talking about going off things as they're portrayed in an actual comic and because of that amping will never be the unstoppable force so many fear it will become due to WIS. But it's an integral part of the Hulk's character to eventually surpass his opponent within the realm of physical strength if sufficient time passes, you take that away from him and you're not debating the Hulk as he's portrayed in comics anymore.

Same thing goes for Surfer, he can and does amp to his opponents level whether he's facing Hulk, Thor, or someone with the strength of a unipowered Gladiator. That's a significant and potentially damning ability to his opponents but if you take it away from him then you're not really debating Surfer anymore, you're debating what you think Surfer SHOULD be and unless I'm mistaken that's the kind of thing we're trying to get away from.

Amping isn't necessarily a trump card(though it often is in the Hulk's case) it's being made out to be here, it's an equalizer.

Full potential blah blah blah means nothing w/o feats to back it. Supposition, hyperbole and hypothesis based on the full capability of a character w/o feats to back those claims is not proof.

Anyway, this thread has been derailed because people either didn't read the opening post, didn't understand the opening post or disregarded the opening post, which seems to happen a lot. It's ironic that this thread was made to make the Vs forum a better place by tweaking debating rules but the guidelines of the opening post couldn't even be followed.

Anyway, this thread is closed as is the discussion about tweaking the rules.