Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Zabuza has shown the speed to fight Kakashi in H2H, and able to block his blows.Kisame has done the same, only replace Kakashi with Gai.
Zabuza has? I just watched the fights, and I don't remember that at all. 😕
Kisame has? I watched the video and I don't remember Kisame blocking all of Gai's shots 😕 . Look what beat Kisame.
Originally posted by Wil71. In the manga he did, fvck the anime. There were a few differences, one such being when both did the Water Dragon jutsu, Kakashi and Zabuza in the anime took like 30 seconds to do it, but in the manga Sasuke even stressed the speed at which they were able to pull off such a powerful jutsu, and commented it was only a few seconds.
Zabuza has? I just watched the fights, and I don't remember that at all. 😕Kisame has? I watched the video and I don't remember Kisame blocking all of Gai's shots 😕 . Look what beat Kisame.
2. Well I would still say Gai is faster than Kisame, but Kisame is still fast enough to fight and hold the upperhand on Gai. And that was 6 Gates Gai...Who could speedblitz anyone short of Madara.
Originally posted by Wil7
Zabuza has? I just watched the fights, and I don't remember that at all. 😕Kisame has? I watched the video and I don't remember Kisame blocking all of Gai's shots 😕 . Look what beat Kisame.
I don't recall seeing Kisame ever lose a fight....
Gai used 6th gate to beat a clone with 30% of Kisame's chakra? not very impressive.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. In the manga he did, fvck the anime. There were a few differences, one such being when both did the Water Dragon jutsu, Kakashi and Zabuza in the anime took like 30 seconds to do it, but in the manga Sasuke even stressed the speed at which they were able to pull off such a powerful jutsu, and commented it was only a few seconds.2. Well I would still say Gai is faster than Kisame, but Kisame is still fast enough to fight and hold the upperhand on Gai. And that was 6 Gates Gai...Who could speedblitz anyone short of Madara.
Well if he did in the anime, and not the manga, then its noncanon. Look how slow Zabuza was doing his jutsu, and if it was faster, then Kakashi would have still been able to copy it.
I never saw Gai speed around Kisame like Lee did to Gaara. Yeah 6 gates Gai, IMO, nobody can block his moves.
Originally posted by Bada's Palin
I don't recall seeing Kisame ever lose a fight....Gai used 6th gate to beat a clone with 30% of Kisame's chakra? not very impressive.
It doesn't matter if you haven't seen him lose a fight, he would lose to Oro, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Kakashi, Gai, Pein, Madara, Itachi, etc.
Did you really think that speed has anything to do with chakra? Well it doesn't, because he will still be at the same speed even at 100% chakra. Gai would still turn on the 6 gates and pumble Kisame.
Originally posted by Wil71. He did it in the manga nub. Learn to read. In the manga he did his jutsu extremely fast as noted by Sasuke. And yeah Kakashi could copy it.
Well if he did in the anime, and not the manga, then its noncanon. Look how slow Zabuza was doing his jutsu, and if it was faster, then Kakashi would have still been able to copy it.I never saw Gai speed around Kisame like Lee did to Gaara. Yeah 6 gates Gai, IMO, nobody can block his moves.
It doesn't matter if you haven't seen him lose a fight, he would lose to Oro, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Kakashi, Gai, Pein, Madara, Itachi, etc.
Did you really think that speed has anything to do with chakra? Well it doesn't, because he will still be at the same speed even at 100% chakra. Gai would still turn on the 6 gates and pumble Kisame.
2. Are you truly implying Lee is faster than Gai? And Lee was able to do that to Gaara because Gaara is slooooooooooooow, the slowest in the series most likely.
3. He wouldn't lose to Tsunade ever, would beat Kakashi more than not, and it was pretty much proven that Gai can't beat 100% Kisame, barely was able to beat 30%.
4. Chakra is used to amp ALL attributes, including speed. Look at the Gates, all they really do is increase personal chakra levels, and look at how much stronger and faster they get.
Originally posted by NonSensi-KlownHe commented on the incredible speed they were doing and noted it was in seconds.
Sawsgays' words were "That many hand seals, and in seconds".30 seconds is still "in seconds". Anything less than a mintue is "in seconds".
*shrug*
The speed they did it in the anime, was not fast.
At all.
Not to mention the entire frame of them doing the seals was in one single panel.
So based on all that information, we can infer that it was very fast, as in, much less than 30 seconds.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
He commented on the incredible speed they were doing and noted it was in seconds.
I gave you the exact quote.
The speed they did it in the anime, was not fast. At all.
Fast is a relative term.
Not to mention the entire frame of them doing the seals was in one single panel.
Panels do not convey a sense of time unless someone is talking or walking or it's in the captions. For all we know Kishi could have made it happen in only two panels because there was nothing else intresting happening, or to save pages.
And by that same notion, your theory for as to why the ice Mirrors is instantaneous falls under that same fallacy. I'm looking at that page right now, and there is no way to tell the time difference between the time the jutsu is cast and when the mirrors are up.
So based on all that information, we can infer that it was very fast, as in, much less than 30 seconds.
All entirely speculative. You can argue about the anime's inaccuracies, but the fact remains that the anime shows moving pictures and so is much more easy to interprete than the manga. That is why we use the anime at all.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
1. He did it in the manga nub. Learn to read. In the manga he did his jutsu extremely fast as noted by Sasuke. And yeah Kakashi could copy it.2. Are you truly implying Lee is faster than Gai? And Lee was able to do that to Gaara because Gaara is slooooooooooooow, the slowest in the series most likely.
3. He wouldn't lose to Tsunade ever, would beat Kakashi more than not, and it was pretty much proven that Gai can't beat 100% Kisame, barely was able to beat 30%.
4. Chakra is used to amp ALL attributes, including speed. Look at the Gates, all they really do is increase personal chakra levels, and look at how much stronger and faster they get.
1. Don't really like the manga's. I look at them once in a while. Nub, crybaby, after that, boxing. Yeah, Kakashi could copy it, so I win there.
2. I don't think I ever said that, DID I!!! Well why do you think Gaara is the slowest in the series, because of a little thing called a gourd. Look how fast lee could move, and look at the slow reaction time of Gaara's. Gai's speed>lee's speed, and if he were zooming around, he would have been able to hit Kisame.
3. Tsunade punches him once and it's over, Kakashi summons the ninja hounds and uses lightning blade, Gai turns on 6 gates to beat Kisame. Not quick enough to block the attacks.
4. Well then, I guess that every single time Lee is zooming around he is wasting chakra, is that what you are saying? Plus, the gates are completly different from pure speed.
hooray!
New information I just realzied.
Here goes your whole pro-Zabzua argument, Dj. 131
Argument- Zabuza managed to land hits on Kakashi even when he was serious.
Neg!
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/29/naruto_29_19/
😐
Kakashi SUPER serious-
Dodging Zabuza's strike easily with a body in his hand.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/31/naruto_31_10/
As you can tell by Zabzua's wide-eyed expression, he's surprised by kakashis' speed.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/31/naruto_31_13/
*cough*
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/31/naruto_31_17/
QED. mmm
Gee, none of that could have anything to do with the fact that Zabuza was weakened could it? 😐
*Hint*Notice the puddle of blood underneath him in the first scan.
Hell, in the fourth scan he has several kunai sticking out from him, and that was the scene where Kakashi "effortlessly knocked Zabuza back with a b!tchslap" as you like to bring up.
So yeah, I would think Kakashi who was relatively in good shape with Sharingan activated should be able to easily outmaneuver a Zabuza who has been lacerated in several places on his body and was continuing to lose blood.
Seriously, wtf? 😬
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown1. Sasuke expressed amazement at their speed. 30 seconds isn't fast at all.
I gave you the exact quote.Fast is a relative term.
Panels do not convey a sense of time unless someone is talking or walking or it's in the captions. For all we know Kishi could have made it happen in only two panels because there was nothing else intresting happening, or to save pages.
And by that same notion, your theory for as to why the ice Mirrors is instantaneous falls under that same fallacy. I'm looking at that page right now, and there is no way to tell the time difference between the time the jutsu is cast and when the mirrors are up.
All entirely speculative. You can argue about the anime's inaccuracies, but the fact remains that the anime shows moving pictures and so is much more easy to interprete than the manga. That is why we use the anime at all.
2. True, but relative to what? Cause sure, in the anime, what they did may of been fast by crippled old man standards, but honestly, if they were even doing handseals faster than a human could, it wasn't by much. Sasuke was clearly relating them to that of other ninja handseals he has seen.
3. Panels typically are used to convey not much time being expressed.
The anime used the slow mirror shit for dramatic effect, in the actual manga it took a single panel for them to be instantly up, but for some reason the anime thought it neccessary to make them very slow, for dramatics, nothing more.
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
[B]Gee, none of that could have anything to do with the fact that Zabuza was weakened could it? 😐
And yet you continue to ignore why he was weakened.
2. True, but relative to what? Cause sure, in the anime, what they did may of been fast by crippled old man standards, but honestly, if they were even doing handseals faster than a human could, it wasn't by much. Sasuke was clearly relating them to that of other ninja handseals he has seen.
What other ninja? The only ninja of relevence he's actually seen do any ninjutsu is Itachi, and we already know that he forms handseals faster than even Kakashi can see. So aside from that we have no proof he has any other ninja to even really compare to. Iruka?
3. Panels typically are used to convey not much time being expressed.
No they're not. Panels are used because it's a comic book and because the pictures don't move you have to have panels to show that something different is happening. That is all.
The anime used the slow mirror shit for dramatic effect, in the actual manga it took a single panel for them to be instantly up, but for some reason the anime thought it neccessary to make them very slow, for dramatics, nothing more.
Prove it. All you have is two panels that don't convey any quantifiable sense of time. The time in-between those two panels could have been days for all we know, and while that is highly unlikely, you can't really prove otherwise.
Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown1. Because he has a dog biting both legs, his neck, his arms, his stomach I think, and maybe sumthin else I forgot. And yeah, it was a clever summon move from Kakashi, I get that. I never argued that Zabuza>Kakashi overall, Kakashi is very versatile and clever. However, the speed gap is not as large as you like to think it is.
And yet you continue to ignore why he was weakened.What other ninja? The only ninja of relevence he's actually seen do any ninjutsu is Itachi, and we already know that he forms handseals faster than even Kakashi can see. So aside from that we have no proof he has any other ninja to even really compare to. Iruka?
No they're not. Panels are used because it's a comic book and because the pictures don't move you have to have panels to show that something different is happening. That is all.
Prove it. All you have is two panels that don't convey any quantifiable sense of time. The time in-between those two panels could have been days for all we know, and while that is highly unlikely, you can't really prove otherwise.
2. Well let us see. He has seen himself form handseals. He has seen Kakashi form handseals before, but that was just playing. He has seen pretty much ever ninja in his academy form handseals. He has probably seen Iruka, a Chunin and his instructor, form handseals. And he noted that for the amount of seals they performed, it was incredibly fast. So nothing at all points to them being slow despite what you think, in fact all evidence points to them being fast, and "a few" is very rarely used to refer to 30 seconds or more.
3. And panels are also used to convey time, if something takes a long period of time usually it will take more panels, or at least state a given time. Which this did btw, it was very fast, and a few seconds.
4. Prove WHAT? That in the anime, it took like 45 seconds for the mirrors to appear, when in the manga, in one panel they literally BURSTED from the water, which is an indication of speed? There was NO indication of the time it takes to summon the mirrors being 45 seconds in the manga, and they did it for dramatic effect in the anime. And the fact that they bursted from the water should say sumthin.
the only part of an anime that stems from a manga that is not canon is filler, manga and comics are storyboards for the cartoon/anime.
when kakashi was using his sharingan to imitate zabuza's techniques, the anime slowed down the frames so that we could understand what was going on, that's all. and the water dragon jutsu has the most required hand seals to activate it, thats why it was selected by kishi to show off the power of the sharingan's copying ability.