Proposition 8- Allowing gay marriage in Califorina

Originally posted by Aequo Animo
I don't dislike them...
Would it make you feel better if I said I have gay friends? I shouldn't have to.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Who cares if you have gay friends? I find myself consciously creeped out by gay (well gay and European) men and I still think they deserve the same rights that I have. It really doesn't matter if you "like" or "dislike" or "want to burn" gay people, the issues are separate and you cannot justify one with the other.

YouTube video

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
I do not live in California but if I did I would vote "yes". Not because I have anything against gays but because I am against [b]any legal definition of marriage for anybody. [/B]

Then you should vote no, because this is an issue of defining marriage.

Originally posted by Markus Corvinus
Best to ignore him, he's been trying to argue with me over my own opinion. He's worse than a child, to be honest.

Aww, your poor opinion! If you're willing to assume the role of parent and decision maker for 10 million Americans, then don't be suprised when you're resented for it.

Originally posted by Markus Corvinus
Hmm, the fact that you continue to use the word shows your lack of knowledge for the word. As I've said before, I think marriage should be between a man & a woman, just like a few others in this thread, and like plenty of others in the world. I like how you're attempting to attack me when other people have basically said the same thing as me. Don't be a hypocrite, and then try to single out someone to start a losing battle.

You're above reproach because you hold the same ignorant view as someone else? That is news to me.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
yeah, and you have all the temperament of a petulant child...bigot.

I'm sorry, did I hurt your wettle feewings?

Originally posted by Aequo Animo
I don't dislike them...
Would it make you feel better if I said I have gay friends? I shouldn't have to.

Yeah, I hear ya. I don't dislike blacks and I also have black friends. But I do feel that blacks should go back to riding in the back of the bus, drinking from different water fountains, using different public restrooms and disallowed from schools where white-people attend. I have nothing against them though, honest.

Originally posted by Aequo Animo
No it's not. That's unbelievably one-dimensional.

So says the guy who would vote against equal rights over the use of a word.

What if a propostion came up to not allow black-people to vote (as it once was) and I said, "I'd be okay with blacks voting, but only if they called it something else other than voting, you know traditions."

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Who cares if you have gay friends? I find myself consciously creeped out by gay (well gay and European) men and I still think they deserve the same rights that I have. It really doesn't matter if you "like" or "dislike" or "want to burn" gay people, the issues are separate and you cannot justify one with the other.

You go to hell, creepy!

Originally posted by Devil King
I'm sorry, did I hurt your wettle feewings?

No I am just trying your tactic of "being the victim"...if we want to hurt feelings we could just point out that your marriage will never be valid and you know it, I know it, everyone knows it...

I just can't wait for the next Hitler to come along and do some damage....

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
No I am just trying your tactic of "being the victim"...if we want to hurt feelings we could just point out that your marriage will never be valid and you know it, I know it, everyone knows it...

I just can't wait for the next Hitler to come along and do some damage....

Ignore him, it's obvious that he's not smart.

Originally posted by Markus Corvinus
Ignore him, it's obvious that he's not smart.

DK likes to say things like that all the time, so I think I am freely permitted to subject him to his own methods...

You obviously haven't dealt with him that often...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
DK likes to say things like that all the time, so I think I am freely permitted to subject him to his own methods...

You obviously haven't dealt with him that often...

Originally posted by Aequo Animo
Ughafahjgjhagplease don't allow this to become redundant:
I did clarify, later on, that by traditional, I meant between a man and a woman.

Thats my point

There is no tradition where marriage is defined as "man and woman" except for the one where women were property, men had total control of household affairs, and marriage was largely for economic and social alliances.

Feminism and the sexual revolution CHANGED this traditional definition of marriage, for the betterment of all society. Literally, into the mid 20th century, marriage was largely a misogynist institution.

The tradition you are appealing to does not exist, it was a myth concocted by the religious right who use "the traditional family" to attempt to persuade people to persecute those they don't like.

Please provide me some examples of where this tradition of marriage you are talking about come from, because frankly I believe you have no basis for the claim.

Originally posted by Devil King
So it kind of went from their nightmare to their dream? If I were a woman, I'd be insulted by their portrayl in tv and movies as these attention-starved whisps that just go through life trying to get a man to give a shit about them enough, to stick around long enough, for them to convince them to ask to get married.

very true. There are not too many (though, I don't watch TV, so I don't really know) really strong, personally able and independently motivated women on TV, and especially in movies. Jackie Brown was probably the best portrayal of a strong woman I've seen, and she was black to boot (Terintino is a genius).

I just don't think it fits in with what people "want" when they want to be "entertained". Like, people have very set views, and they don't want them to be challenged. The damsel in distress is rescued by the highly capable man and she has sex with him because he did so. It works best if the damsel and the hero had tension that is inexplicably resolved with (normally coloured) people being killed.

lol, I guess that is more action movie, and less sitcom (which I think you were talking about) but ya, the "I need a man to complete me" BS is really bad too. I think that cuts both ways though, and I think men have some very negative gender roles that the media promotes as well.

Originally posted by Devil King
It's a far cry from the chick I saw in Africa that has to get married with a pile of shit on her head to symbolize that she is lower than the ground the shit falls to and the man walks over.

wow, I had not heard of that...

Stuff is great in the West, its not perfect though. 😖hrug:

Originally posted by Aequo Animo
I don't dislike them...
Would it make you feel better if I said I have gay friends? I shouldn't have to.

you have personal friends who you would deny the ability to marry the person they loved?

like, you could sit down with one of your good friends, look them in the eye and say "I don't think you deserve to have the same rights as I do in this society. I don't think you should be allowed to marry the person you love"

Actually, try it. Be really calm and nice about it, say it with a smile on your face, and let me know what profanities they call you when you are done.

At first he was really disappointed with me. But then I clarified with him, as I will do with you now, again, that I want him and his other to hold the same rights and benefits as a married couple. He then was just frustrated because that meant voting 'yes' and delaying the goal. He was far from angry, but respectively disagreed on the basis that if other states have it, so should California.

Originally posted by inimalist
Please provide me some examples of where this tradition of marriage you are talking about come from, because frankly I believe you have no basis for the claim.

I would vote Yes. I believe Homosexuals are the devil. Case In Point...Devil King.

Originally posted by Aequo Animo
That time, not too long ago, when the idea of a man marrying a man was far from the American public's mind, and the institution of a man-woman marriage appeared exclusive and was prevalent. I think it came after the dinosaurs.

so you do refer to the time when women were treated as the property of men, sold to them by the father of the bride.

so you are arguing for the traditional definition of marriage, the one that also includes a healthy dose of misogyny.

Originally posted by inimalist
so you do refer to the time when women were treated as the property of men, sold to them by the father of the bride.

so you are arguing for the traditional definition of marriage, the one that also includes a healthy dose of misogyny.

I am arguing on behalf of a traditional definition of marriage, but not the one that also includes a healthy does of misogyny.

Originally posted by Aequo Animo
I feel like you're just messin' with the newbie at this point...
I suppose I can refer to that time because then it was between man and women, but I do not condone that women be treated as property.
Now, I'm more accurately referring to the years residing in the 1900's, and even the late 1800's in a few cases. Both of my grandmothers and the great grandmother that I know of willingly chose their husbands and were not treated as property.

I am arguing on behalf of a traditional definition of marriage, but not the one that also includes a healthy does of misogyny.

As in to adjust for this modern time, yeah, sure.

Originally posted by Aequo Animo
As in to adjust for this modern time, yeah, sure.