Originally posted by roughrider
How does my earlier response have nothing to do with what you're talking about?
When Joker can give him a good tussle up close, something isn’t right.
For some reason you start comparing his fighting abilities to how well he can adapt to a situation like the Joker escaping from prison as if the two are somehow analogous.
Originally posted by roughrider
And you forget the bravura sequences that show Bruce's great skills: the perfectly timed break-in and snatching of Lau out of Hong Kong, then the climatic sequence in the construction building, where he takes out virtually all the henchmen, fights off the incoming SWAT team, and saves the hostages on multiple floors all within a few minutes. The former shows perfect prep; the latter shows great ability to improvise on the fly.Having a little more trouble with some thugs? He does something outside his normal M.O. by storming into a nightclub filled with a hundred people, to interrogate Maroni. He still gets by his bodyguards in the tight space. But it goes back to what was said at the end of BB, about adaption & escalation. Maroni & his cronies start the practice of staying in public places and watching where they go at night to avoid Batman. His encounter with the killer dogs is part of that too, as he finds his suit not resistant enough against them, so he adapts to a new suit. We see such things in the comics; he use to not have safety measures if he was knocked unconscious while on patrol. Now, his suit has defenses.
Again, what I’m addressing are his H2H abilities.
As in Hand.
To.
Hand.
I’m saying is that he was presented as more of a guy with a black belt in karate in a silly costume rather than Batman as opposed to how he was presented in Begins. He appeared slower and not quite as skilled. He came across as too human.
And Batman is not an attainable character.
Originally posted by roughrider
As far as Michael Keaton, I was glad at the time that they didn't screw up the character. But the perception of being outshone by the villains was twice as great in the Burton films - there was a joke at the time that the film may as well been called 'Joker' due to Jack Nicholson's dominance on screen. Keaton/Burton's take was closer to Phantom Of The Opera, he stayed so much in the background. And, he had no evolution from the first film to the second, unlike Bale. Bruce Wayne is an angry young man finally finding an outlet for his rage in BB (Alfred worries about him getting lost inside his 'monster'😉; by the second film he's starting to have doubt if he's helping the city or just escalating the problems in Gotham. A journey is much more evident in the Nolan films.
Keaton held his own just fine as Batman and acted just as well as Nicholson. Meanwhile, Bale was straight up out-done by Ledger.
And again, you’re discussing something entirely different. You’re comparing how the character Bruce Wayne changed between films more so than how the actors portrayed him respectively. And I would agree that Bale probably plays the best Bruce Wayne so far.
However, his Batman left much to be desired in the Dark Knight, as opposed to his Batman in Batman Begins. If you thought he breezed through the second film as easily as he did the first film, you’re only deluding yourself.
Keaton on the other hand, played Batman immaculately. Both times.
Yeah well, I guess your not reading what I've been saying either. And you can't come up with any specific situation when an opponent in TDK was handing him his ass, without using someone else or a distraction tactic. And you continue to praise Keaton without actually saying what he did that was so distinguished. And because Batman is a master fighter in martial arts while Joker is just a brilliant, giggling psycho with a lot of tricks up his sleeve, they have to come up with ways for the film not to be over in less than an hour because Batman is apparently capable of taking anyone down with prep. I continue to say, what I saw on the big screen is an accurate reflection of Batman's skills on the comic page.
In the end...whatever. We just agree to disagree.
- That Keaton held his own against Nicholson...if that's your opinion, fine. It just flies in the face of the VAST majority of fandom & media for two decades now, who believe Keaton virtually disappeared on screen next to Jack.
Originally posted by roughrider
And you can't come up with any specific situation when an opponent in TDK was handing him his ass, without using someone else or a distraction tactic.
They all showed him as being far slower than he was portrayed in Begins, which all leads to what I’ve been saying all along:
I’m saying is that he was presented as more of a guy with a black belt in karate in a silly costume rather than Batman as opposed to how he was presented in Begins. He appeared slower and not quite as skilled. He came across as too human.And Batman is not an attainable character.
Originally posted by roughrider
And you continue to praise Keaton without actually saying what he did that was so distinguished.
I guess I could point that out, but I figured it was obvious.
Originally posted by roughrider
- That Keaton held his own against Nicholson...if that's your opinion, fine. It just flies in the face of the VAST majority of fandom & media for two decades now, who believe Keaton virtually disappeared on screen next to Jack.