Originally posted by Bardock42US and other counties' interests were to trade with Africa, but because Africa was already in shit, they got the short end of the stick. It's like how the Native Americans lost their land.
Not really. What exactly that happened in Africa do you think is Capitalism?We shouldn't argue though, apparently our debates put threads into deep distress...either that or someone is childish and on a silly power trip.
I didn't get it either, oh well.
Both sides have negative and positive sides, capitalism has less negatives.
Both are a round about way dictatorship, there are no true communist governments and never have been. People in power will always look after themselves, friends and family. When one man is driven round in a Rolls Royce and once on donkey, then it can´t been communism because these two people arn´t equally well off.
Originally posted by lord xyzYou think that what happened to the Natives is also Capitalisms fault?
US and other counties' interests were to trade with Africa, but because Africa was already in shit, they got the short end of the stick. It's like how the Native Americans lost their land.I didn't get it either, oh well.
I mean, I do see a lot of blame towards capitalism, but I don't see exactly how it really applies.
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." -- Norman Thomas, six-time candidate for President on the Socialist Party
Originally posted by KidRock
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program until one day America will be a socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened." -- Norman Thomas, six-time candidate for President on the Socialist Party
I'm not sure I care what a six time loser socialist has to say.
Capitalism affected African and Latin American countries IF by capitalism you mean:
The American government using its clout to encourage international organizations like the IMF and WTO to open boarders into economically unstable markets with specific policy instructions that controlled the ability of the foreign government to set its own import/export policies and protected American corporate and economic interests.
I know a lot of people think that is what capitalism is, so one can be forgiven, but that isn't Adam Smith style, no invisible hand, free trade.
Originally posted by Bardock42Woah, woah, woah. I'm not gonna go as conterversial and say the killing of NA were because of capitalism. But there was that whole selling the land for worthless shit.
You think that what happened to the Natives is also Capitalisms fault?I mean, I do see a lot of blame towards capitalism, but I don't see exactly how it really applies.
It's the whole free trade thing. Exploiting others for your benefit is the system, and that's why Africa sucks. We sold shit for their goods. It happened in Latin America and Asia as well.
Originally posted by lord xyz
But there was that whole selling the land for worthless shit.
the state bought the land from the natives and the state violated those contracts
Originally posted by lord xyz
It's the whole free trade thing. Exploiting others for your benefit is the system, and that's why Africa sucks. We sold shit for their goods. It happened in Latin America and Asia as well.
All of which was done with heavy involvement of the American government, local governments, and international governmental institutions.
Trade with Africa, Latin America and South East Asia has never been free, in the sense that it has never been capitalistic (ie, free of the state)
Originally posted by Bardock42
There's capitalism in Afrika? I thought the problem there was the strong and almost totalitarian leaders, governments or warlords...which seems contrary to the principles of capitalism.
Oh...I didn't realise you were totally ignorant of the Large MegaCorps which exploit African Nations and subscribe to capitalist ideology...
However, it should be noted that the Capitalist system of economic management is not at fault but rather the corporate greed which it accommodates and in many ways encourages...Therefore, Capitalism is the root fault.
I'm not a socialist, just pointing out that even Capitalism has its flaws...
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Oh...I didn't realise you were totally ignorant of the Large MegaCorps which exploit African Nations and subscribe to capitalist ideology...However, it should be noted that the Capitalist system of economic management is not at fault but rather the corporate greed which it accommodates and in many ways encourages...Therefore, Capitalism is the root fault.
I'm not a socialist, just pointing out that even Capitalism has its flaws...
except for the fact that the national governments of Africa are heavily involved in those deals, and the American government uses bodies like the IMF and WTO to protect its corporate interests abroad
making the process entirely anti-capitalistic, and close to corporate socialism
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavOh I didn't realise you chose to call non-capitalist, state sanctioned exploitation capitalist. My bad.
Oh...I didn't realise you were totally ignorant of the Large MegaCorps which exploit African Nations and subscribe to capitalist ideology...However, it should be noted that the Capitalist system of economic management is not at fault but rather the corporate greed which it accommodates and in many ways encourages...Therefore, Capitalism is the root fault.
I'm not a socialist, just pointing out that even Capitalism has its flaws...
What happens in Africa is not capitalist, and though people like to blame capitalism for everything, it is a misunderstanding that capitalist means everything big corporations do.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh I didn't realise you chose to call non-capitalist, state sanctioned exploitation capitalist. My bad.What happens in Africa is not capitalist, and though people like to blame capitalism for everything, it is a misunderstanding that capitalist means everything big corporations do.
Your being pretty pedantic in your defence...
Question: Is the capitalist system responsible for the large corporations- such as Nestle for example...
Answer: Yes
Therefore, the actions of the corporations are connected to the capitalist agenda.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-GavYou're. And no, I don't think using the correct word when trying to attack the concept it describes is pedantic. I mean, what would you say if I say Socialism is shit because they burn Jews. Yes, burning Jews happened, and yes, the people that did it claimed socialism in their name...but is socialism responsible for that?
Your being pretty pedantic in your defence...Question: Is the capitalist system responsible for the large corporations- such as Nestle for example...
Answer: Yes
Therefore, the actions of the corporations are connected to the capitalist agenda.
The answer is no.
And no, capitalism is not responsible for those either, really. Again, corporate socialism or totalitarian dictatorships are generally to blame for those.
And if capitalism was applied it wouldn't happen. Capitalism isn't applied, so it happens, in fact, that's the opposite of Capitalism's fault.
Whats the difference between socialism and communism? I mean if there is one then my point is void but I am just gonna say it anyway: Communism doesnt work because human beings need incentives to work otherwise why bother working harder then the other guy? If your on about better rights and such for workers as in thats what you mean by socialism then basically tbh someone out there has to bridge the two ideas with a compromise that incorporates aspect of capitalism and socialism to realise, And make whatever socialist ideals a socialist has work.
Originally posted by inimalist
is catholicism responsible for priests?thus catholicism is responsible for priests touching little boys
Of course it is...do you think Rome's rules on celibacy, the shuffling of priests from parish to parish and so on have nothing to do with it?
Originally posted by Bardock42
You're. And no, I don't think using the correct word when trying to attack the concept it describes is pedantic. I mean, what would you say if I say Socialism is shit because they burn Jews. Yes, burning Jews happened, and yes, the people that did it claimed socialism in their name...but is socialism responsible for that?The answer is no.
And no, capitalism is not responsible for those either, really. Again, corporate socialism or totalitarian dictatorships are generally to blame for those.
And if capitalism was applied it wouldn't happen. Capitalism isn't applied, so it happens, in fact, that's the opposite of Capitalism's fault.
Let me ask you another question, has capitalism allowed these Corporations to flourish?
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Of course it is...do you think Rome's rules on celibacy, the shuffling of priests from parish to parish and so on have nothing to do with it?
do I, of course
I wouldn't say "Catholicism" is the cause of it though
basically just echoing Bardock's point. I think you get what I am saying, as you pointed to specific practices, as opposed to the concept in itself, that cause the behaviour.
Much like capitalism, because the economic elite and political elite blur (especially given how much it costs to run for office) certain policies are developed that are not capitalistic (like how shuffling priests around is not a catholic dogma, I assume).
This almost seems like a XYZ style infinite regression, what stops your line of logic from saying: Money creates capitalism creates corporations creates corruption creates exploitation, thus money should be eliminated?
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
has capitalism allowed these Corporations to flourish?
(not to answer questions not asked of me, but...)
no, it is not. Some companies, potentially, but in the modern economy, the economy and government are so interconnected through donations and lobbying that it really isn't appropriate to call them "capitalist". The 700b bailout is a perfect example of this, but it goes back decades.
I personally believe that the number of super conglomerated mega corporations would be less and local, potentially even chain, buisnusses would be far more prominent. Economic and market poliy of the American government is to protect its mega-corporations from financial problems and the natural capitalistic consequences of bad business practices.
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Of course it is...do you think Rome's rules on celibacy, the shuffling of priests from parish to parish and so on have nothing to do with it?
Hmm feel I am gonna have to speak up although I aint religious I was baptised catholic. Yes the celibacy thing could be a factor and the shuffling a cover up for incidents that occured but you must also take into consideration:
- That type of person could have went for the job in order to get access to little boys for example just like those nutty nurses you see on the news that abuse there patients they took the job for access thus putting the blame at the said individuals doorstep
- I dont agree with alot of romes policies so I doubt I can consider myself a praticising catholic anymore but the celibacy thing is really about money...If priest where allowed to marry and have partners the church would have to allocate more money to them etc
- In response to the parish shuffling I aint aware of alot of that going on I mean I know priests that have served a community for years even until they died. Those cases of foul play it was perhaps a cover up method I would concede to but it sure as hell aint standard practice shuffling priests about.