Ultimatum

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Loebs just from an Older generation of comic book writers. He's really just stuck in his 90's ways. I get the same vibes from Kurt Brusiek. In a way it make me appreciate how much more sophisticated the medium has got. It also allows me to appreciate the work of some of the more criticised writers, such as Bendis and Miller. So true though.

Agreed ✅ I have got nothing against Loeb he has done some great stuff and some terrible stuff. Unfortunately most of his more modern stuff goes into the latter category IMO.

Originally posted by willRules
Agreed ✅ I have got nothing against Loeb he has done some great stuff and some terrible stuff. Unfortunately most of his more modern stuff goes into the latter category IMO.

Like Frank Millar, but much more pronounced. Frank still has some skill in him, even if his best work is also past him.

I've said this before, but average demographics for comics are fairly young. 14-18 (or some similar range) is a massive percentage of readers, and certainly for new readers. And Loeb is a great writer for them. Kids don't get into comics to read, say, Neil Gaiman. They get into it to see Hulk SMASH and sh*t like that. They get into it to see their favorite villain (Mags) killing continents and playing the typical arch-villain to a host of stereotyped characters. Etc. etc. So he'll always have sales and an audience, even if it's not most of us, the "hardcore" comic fans.

Originally posted by Digi
I've said this before, but average demographics for comics are fairly young. 14-18 (or some similar range) is a massive percentage of readers, and certainly for new readers. And Loeb is a great writer for them. Kids don't get into comics to read, say, Neil Gaiman. They get into it to see Hulk SMASH and sh*t like that. They get into it to see their favorite villain (Mags) killing continents and playing the typical arch-villain to a host of stereotyped characters. Etc. etc. So he'll always have sales and an audience, even if it's not most of us, the "hardcore" comic fans.

On another note, I personally didn't go into this thinking it would be the next Watchmen or Kingdom Come. Instead, I went into it with an open mind, knowing full well what I could expect from a Loeb creation - meaning it was going to be action packed, full of ridiculous feats, and play the stereotypical 'hero card' [as those are all things we can expect from him.]

It's probably because I'm not reading too far into it, that I've enjoyed this story as much as I have so far. I mean, if you really thought it was going to be a philosophical masterpiece, which solely targeted an 'older' audience, then you had WAY too high of expectations for it. It's meant to be a 'funner' read - take it for what it's worth.

Originally posted by Galan007
You can't knock Loeb too much for that. The guy does what he needs to do to sell comics - and that is, afterall, one of the main concerns for writers nowadays.

On another note, I personally didn't go into this thinking it would be the next Watchmen or Kingdom Come. Instead, I went into it with an open mind, knowing full well what I could expect from a Loeb creation - meaning it was going to be action packed, full of ridiculous feats, and play the stereotypical 'hero card' [as those are all things we can expect from him.]

It's probably because I'm not reading too far into it, that I've enjoyed this story as much as I have so far. I mean, if you really thought it was going to be a philosophical masterpiece, which solely targeted an 'older' audience, then you had WAY too high of expectations for it. It's meant to be a 'funner' read - take it for what it's worth.

I don't read Loeb expecting that either. Doesn't mean I enjoy it more. Large spectacles and battles can still be done tastefully. Johns' treatment of Infinite Crisis is an example. Or the original Crisis, for that matter. Or any large "event" that you've ever enjoyed (Annihilation comes to mind).

I enjoy the Ultimate universe, so I'm following it. My first post in this thread says it's not bad, considering my expectations. So we're kinda in agreement.

But, as before, younger audience + continued sales means that he'll stay in this particular idiom probably forever.

Also, I don't think he's consciously targeting the younger demograph. I think he writes a certain way, and it happens to appeal to them. Coincidental, not intentional.

Originally posted by Galan007
You can't knock Loeb too much for that. The guy does what he needs to do to sell comics - and that is, afterall, one of the main concerns for writers nowadays.

On another note, I personally didn't go into this thinking it would be the next Watchmen or Kingdom Come. Instead, I went into it with an open mind, knowing full well what I could expect from a Loeb creation - meaning it was going to be action packed, full of ridiculous feats, and play the stereotypical 'hero card' [as those are all things we can expect from him.]

It's probably because I'm not reading too far into it, that I've enjoyed this story as much as I have so far. I mean, if you really thought it was going to be a philosophical masterpiece, which solely targeted an 'older' audience, then you had WAY too high of expectations for it. It's meant to be a 'funner' read - take it for what it's worth.

Totally agree and I think Loeb has a large audience he can appeal to with this kinda comic. Hulk is perfect for that. He's good with the action that appeals to the demographics that Digi quoted. My only concern is that there is a time and a place for it and I don't believe the Ultimate titles are that. When reading Ultimates, Millar's run on the title is at the forefront of my mind, it mixed balls to wall action with political satire and strong Christian undertones in a very modern and quirky way which I found to be an extremely enjoyable story. When I think of Ultimates, Loeb is the wrong kind of writer. Hulk is a perfect title for him. With Ultimates my expectations were lowered like you guys because IMO Loeb would inevitably reduce the title to the state it's in.

But like I've mentioned this is no criticism on Loeb's part. It's clearly got a wide following and some enjoy it, some don't. I'm in the latter category for two main reasons. Firstly I feel that my opinion of Ultimates is always gonna be coloured by Millar's epic run so anything else is going to be disappointing for me. Secondly I think Loeb's simply been on the wrong title. I think he would do excellent action packed else-worlds stories for Batman or some kind of team book. Hulk whether you like it or not is definitely his kind of niche. I just don't think Ultimates is his. I think someone like Mark Millar or Warren Ellis should be on the title.

But at the end of the day, hey, to each his own. 😄

Final Crisis, Batman:RIP just show that the comic medium isn't ready for sophisticated stories, and would rather stay with Hulk, Ultimatum and such.

And Loeb is obviously consciously doing this kind of stories, in a way taking advantage of the age and (sadly) intelligence of the average comic reader, because he has proven that he can write good stories.

He sells and in the end that's what matters.

Originally posted by Digi
I don't read Loeb expecting that either. Doesn't mean I enjoy it more. Large spectacles and battles can still be done tastefully. Johns' treatment of Infinite Crisis is an example. Or the original Crisis, for that matter. Or any large "event" that you've ever enjoyed (Annihilation comes to mind).

Originally posted by willRules
Totally agree and I think Loeb has a large audience he can appeal to with this kinda comic. Hulk is perfect for that. He's good with the action that appeals to the demographics that Digi quoted. My only concern is that there is a time and a place for it and I don't believe the Ultimate titles are that. When reading Ultimates, Millar's run on the title is at the forefront of my mind, it mixed balls to wall action with political satire and strong Christian undertones in a very modern and quirky way which I found to be an extremely enjoyable story. When I think of Ultimates, Loeb is the wrong kind of writer. Hulk is a perfect title for him. With Ultimates my expectations were lowered like you guys because IMO Loeb would inevitably reduce the title to the state it's in.

But like I've mentioned this is no criticism on Loeb's part. It's clearly got a wide following and some enjoy it, some don't. I'm in the latter category for two main reasons. Firstly I feel that my opinion of Ultimates is always gonna be coloured by Millar's epic run so anything else is going to be disappointing for me. Secondly I think Loeb's simply been on the wrong title. I think he would do excellent action packed else-worlds stories for Batman or some kind of team book. Hulk whether you like it or not is definitely his kind of niche. I just don't think Ultimates is his. I think someone like Mark Millar or Warren Ellis should be on the title.

But at the end of the day, hey, to each his own. 😄

So Blob is a cannibal now :/

Originally posted by Philosophía
Final Crisis, Batman:RIP just show that the comic medium isn't ready for sophisticated stories, and would rather stay with Hulk, Ultimatum and such.

And Loeb is obviously consciously doing this kind of stories, in a way taking advantage of the age and (sadly) intelligence of the average comic reader, because he has proven that he can write good stories.

He sells and in the end that's what matters.

Wait, what? Of course the medium ready for sophisticated stories. Sophisticated has been doing well for decades, albeit in a more niche market. Most people who enjoy complexity and nuance still dislike FC and RIP for various reasons, which says very little about the industry and more about the execution of those particular storylines (both rather poor, by most opinions).

There's room for both, obviously, since it's a large market nowadays. Loeb's success with more childish fare has nothing to do with that.

Originally posted by Digi
Wait, what? Of course the medium ready for sophisticated stories. Sophisticated has been doing well for decades, albeit in a more niche market. Most people who enjoy complexity and nuance still dislike FC and RIP for various reasons, which says very little about the industry and more about the execution of those particular storylines (both rather poor, by most opinions).

There's room for both, obviously, since it's a large market nowadays. Loeb's success with more childish fare has nothing to do with that.

Far from it, in terms of marketing succes. When you constantly have stories like Hulk, Ultimates v3 and many others at the top of the sales charts, the first one being quite literally only mindless action, then you know something is wrong. There are many people who enjoy complex stories but they are more the exception that the rule (the sales charts reflect this, and that is why I said 'average comic book reader'😉. Fact is, storiess that are more sophisticated just aren't appealing to the majority of the comic book public.

Let me guess, they disliked Final Crisis and Batman: RIP because they thought the story is too dense, or because the style is too disjointed in certain parts ? Not surprising. This gets us back to people prefering to stay with more simple stories, and like to know everything up-front. There is absolutley nothing wrong with the execution of Final Crisis or Batman: RIP (one of the only legitimate reasons people might complain for the aforementioned is due to the ending). I'd be willing to discuss any complaints on this stories (prefferably bumping the other threads and doing in there)

You could say that Loeb is a necessary evil to stave off the Manga-craze.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
So Blob is a cannibal now :/

Shock-effect ftw.

Compare this, to one of the horsemen killing Osiris in 52.

Originally posted by Philosophía
Shock-effect ftw.

Compare this, to one of the horsemen killing Osiris in 52.

The crocodile guy? Saw that one coming a mile away, I mean come on ... he was a FCUKING CROCODILE GUY!!!

😛

Originally posted by Philosophía
Shock-effect ftw.

That was my immediate thought when I read the first two issues ✅

Originally posted by Philosophía
Far from it, in terms of marketing succes. When you constantly have stories like Hulk, Ultimates v3 and many others at the top of the sales charts, the first one being quite literally only mindless action, then you know something is wrong. There are many people who enjoy complex stories but they are more the exception that the rule (the sales charts reflect this, and that is why I said 'average comic book reader'😉. Fact is, storiess that are more sophisticated just aren't appealing to the majority of the comic book public.

Let me guess, they disliked Final Crisis and Batman: RIP because they thought the story is too dense, or because the style is too disjointed in certain parts ? Not surprising. This gets us back to people prefering to stay with more simple stories, and like to know everything up-front. There is absolutley nothing wrong with the execution of Final Crisis or Batman: RIP (one of the only legitimate reasons people might complain for the aforementioned is due to the ending). I'd be willing to discuss any complaints on this stories (prefferably bumping the other threads and doing in there)

I didn't say they have a huge market. But there IS is a market for sophisticated material. Hell, what bigger proof do you need than the upcoming Watchmen movie? And it won't be as big as the flagships, but will still be successful.

FC and RIP were mucked up with continuity issues, too much hype, and tie-in silliness. They still sold fine, so apparently there is a market, in terms of sheer dollars. But those aren't even critically acclaimed "sophisticated" material. Indie companies, writers' pet projects (I know Warren Ellis has a bunch), Alan Moore, Gaiman, the list goes on.

So yeah, the majority of comic readers are young, and they prefer simpler stories. Doesn't mean intelligent stuff can't thrive, they just won't be the things that keep the companies in business.

What does more business, McDonald's or {insert fancy restaurant}? McDonald's, even accounting for price differences. But there's room for both in the economy. Same principle.

Originally posted by Digi
I didn't say they have a huge market. But there IS is a market for sophisticated material. Hell, what bigger proof do you need than the upcoming Watchmen movie? And it won't be as big as the flagships, but will still be successful.

FC and RIP were mucked up with continuity issues, too much hype, and tie-in silliness. They still sold fine, so apparently there is a market, in terms of sheer dollars. But those aren't even critically acclaimed "sophisticated" material. Indie companies, writers' pet projects (I know Warren Ellis has a bunch), Alan Moore, Gaiman, the list goes on.

So yeah, the majority of comic readers are young, and they prefer simpler stories. Doesn't mean intelligent stuff can't thrive, they just won't be the things that keep the companies in business.

That's the point, they don't have a huge market, compared to the series I mentioned, which is why I made the remarks about the average comic reader prefering more simple stories, and Jeph Loeb delivering just that, thus why the succes. Publish a multi-layered, dense story in one of the big 2 companies and most will start going 'I don't get it', 'What is happening', 'I hate this stuff'.

Well, it's not Final Crisis/Grant's fault DC screwed it up with Countdown and stuff (which Grant fixes btw, in the one-shot coming this week), which is why I think the story should be judged simply by what it is. Hype is one of the main reasons why I said some people might be dissapointed with RIP finale, seeing as how it was said to be the most 'shocking reveal in 70 years' or 'the end of Batman', which in the end was moved on to Final Crisis #6. Still, if you're looking into it that shocking conclusion could be seen, but nothing specific is stated only hinted at. And the tie-ins part is where I completly disagree. Grant flat-out said from the start that he doesn't care about all the other tie-ins for Batman: RIP, as for Final Crisis, except supposdley Superman Beyond, and the few one-shots, nothing else is needed either. This doesn't even begin to compare to other company-wide events and the tie-ins for them.

Blob ate Wanda?

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Blob ate Wanda?

Janet.