ANH Vader Vs Darth Malak

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and [b]devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support.

Source: The Dark Side Sourcebook
[/B]

EDIT: I found your real source http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20031009malak it is an article called Darth Malak:An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, it is written by an rpg author, and btw the passage you quoted has nothing to do with the DSS which has this: * symbol next to do it in the article. Besides there probably are a lot people with similar quotes to this.

Darth Malak is a straightforward lightsaber combatant. True to his character, his abilities and powers focus on attacking his enemies head on. His high Defense and Attack scores enable him take on strong opponents, and he can increase his damage through Sith Rage when desired.

Source: Champions of the Force

Sorry for the double post but I ran out of editing time. Both of SW Legend's sources Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Miniatures: Champions of the Force are second rate sources at best if they are even considered canon. I am aware that I link I posted doesn't work to well but I was on it before and if I recall correctly the rpg author(Cory Herndon) can't even get the story of Malak's betrayal of Revan correct, I think he says that Malak was enraged by his master's death) then the next part of legends quote from the Malak article tries to compare Malak to Exar Kun and Freddon Nadd.

Step up your game Legend.

My take on the fight is Vader wins a saber duel, Malak takes the force and Vader wins an all out fight with great difficulty.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
If you read the fight in Death Star you'll see that Kenobi never stood a chance at winning so i wouldn't call the fight a stalemate. It went something like this: obiwan attacked, vader easily blocked his shots, then vader decided to go on the offensive and after a short while vader felt the energy shift in his favor, from then on the fight only gets worse for obi wan until he died.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Yes malak was about to win........ against a weaker revan, as for carth all he did was get force pushed and then he get frozen by malak with the force no way you could call that a combatant

1) Learned to control his emotions (A trait mostly observed in wise and powerful Jedi including Yoda and Luke Skywalker)
2) Proceeded to get trained in the ways of the Sith as well on a Sith world called Korriban, so he studied both aspects of the Force and not just relied on the training of the Jedi. (As the most powerful Dark Lord in history - Darth Sidious once said that to achieve greatness, one should study both aspects of the Force.)

And as far as Carth was concerned, he did posed a threat as he was armed with high-tech weapons and was a skilled soldier. He could shoot at Malak with his guns but the Dark Lord knew that if he had to concentrate on defeating the Jedi, he should take care of this problem and so he never allowed Carth to attack him through his powers during the course of the duel, while cocentrating on defeating the Jedi, which is impressive.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Do you really think that malak and his "devastating dark side power"= 80% of the emperor

And using random statistics is not a good way to judge the over-all combat prowess of the Dark Lord. We should also look at the weaknesses of the character in question. By Sith Lord standards, Malak was almost perfect.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
excuse me sir but is that last part sounds like it's gameplay, is it?

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Just saw the scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLjd0XNsa4A) and while malak was smart for not letting his opponents coordinate he never actually fought 3 vs 1 while vader has fought 2 vs 1, 7 vs 1, and 8 vs 1 (although to be fair he killed only 4 of those 8)

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
In the all out Vader can use his lightsaber to block the lightning. [/B]

Edit: sorry guys accidently pressed enter (which posted the reply before i was done) ignore and go on to my next post

Same excuse my triple post in advance

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Sorry for the double post but I ran out of editing time. Both of SW Legend's sources Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Miniatures: Champions of the Force are second rate sources at best if they are even considered canon. I am aware that I link I posted doesn't work to well but I was on it before and if I recall correctly the rpg author(Cory Herndon) can't even get the story of Malak's betrayal of Revan correct, I think he says that Malak was enraged by his master's death) then the next part of legends quote from the Malak article tries to compare Malak to Exar Kun and Freddon Nadd.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
My take on the fight is Vader wins a saber duel,

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Malak takes the force and Vader wins an all out fight with great difficulty.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Sorry for the double post but I ran out of editing time. Both of SW Legend's sources Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and Star Wars Miniatures: Champions of the Force are second rate sources at best if they are even considered canon. I am aware that I link I posted doesn't work to well but I was on it before and if I recall correctly the rpg author(Cory Herndon) can't even get the story of Malak's betrayal of Revan correct, I think he says that Malak was enraged by his master's death) then the next part of legends quote from the Malak article tries to compare Malak to Exar Kun and Freddon Nadd.

Step up your game Legend.

My take on the fight is Vader wins a saber duel, Malak takes the force and Vader wins an all out fight with great difficulty.

The sourcebooks produced by WoC are actually canon; however, Legend is using a rather outdated one. There is in fact a Kotor Sourcebook with updated canon in it.

LeGenD, you do realize that you haven't made anything approaching a viable argument for Malak, right? That he is able to "take on strong opponents" and "strike fear into his former allies" doesn't translate to anything remarkable or relevant here. Vader isn't just a strong opponent nor is he a former ally of Malak's.

The Force Unleashed depicts Vader making use of a vast strength in the Force, collapsing gigantic structures "as strong as durasteel" rather casually, telekinetically hurling tremendous stone tablets effortlessly, kicking the shit out of Starkiller, casually overpowering a dueling droid designed to mimic fabled Jedi and Sith swordsmen -- a younger Obi-Wan Kenobi in fact. Rise of Darth Vader shows him embarrass a group of renegade Jedi in combat by adopting attacks and methods from all seven modes of Jedi combat, dismantling a bridge and using it as a telekinetic storm to disarm and defeat Roan Shryne, In His Image shows him defeat seven dark Jedi in combat, cloned from a powerful Emperor's Hand.

I want feats that suggest Malak can do the same.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I do not need to read about the fight that took place between the aged Obi-Wan and Darth Vader on the Death Star. I have the movie (G-Canon material) to use as a source. Throughout the duel, neither the aged Obi-Wan and nor the Darth Vader was gaining any advantage. However for some reason, Obi-Wan let his guard down and allowed the Sith Lord to strike.

Death Star shows us the fight with more details and does not contradict the movies therefore it is canon too. In a lightsaber duel it often doesn't look like one side is gaining the advantage unless one side is retreating as obi wan was.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Using the term "weaker Revan" is an easy way to dispel the credibility of Malak' combat prowess. Revan wasn't weak and had great potential, but the problem was that the training imparted by the Jedi Council was not enough to match the abilities of the Dark Lord in question. Revan realized this and after the duel did following:

1) Learned to control his emotions (A trait mostly observed in wise and powerful Jedi including Yoda and Luke Skywalker)
2) Proceeded to get trained in the ways of the Sith as well on a Sith world called Korriban, so he studied both aspects of the Force and not just relied on the training of the Jedi. (As the most powerful Dark Lord in history - Darth Sidious once said that to achieve greatness, one should study both aspects of the Force.)

And as far as Carth was concerned, he did posed a threat as he was armed with high-tech weapons and was a skilled soldier. He could shoot at Malak with his guns but the Dark Lord knew that if he had to concentrate on defeating the Jedi, he should take care of this problem and so he never allowed Carth to attack him through his powers during the course of the duel, while cocentrating on defeating the Jedi, which is impressive.

Like you said revan loss due to insufficient training- making his defeat by malak unimpressive. As for Carth he isn't force sensitive it doesn't take much to hold him down and yes he was fighting but it was a weaker revan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

We do not know but the terms like "devastating dark side power" do indicate that the Sith Lord in question would be very powerful.

And using random statistics is not a good way to judge the over-all combat prowess of the Dark Lord. We should also look at the weaknesses of the character in question. By Sith Lord standards, Malak was almost perfect.

"Devastating dark side power" is pretty vague it does indicate that malak is poweful but being powerful is not enough to beat vader. I wouldn't say that malak is almost perfect considering that he took a good cheapshot at his master and didn't even do that right. And to top it off he owes his success to what his master built.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Darth Malak was introduced as a character in the Star Wars Universe in an RPG game. His combat abilities have been described using the KOTOR game (C-Canon material) as a source and by authors who have a history of writing canon materials for Star Wars including: Draw Karpyshyn and Cory Herndon. So all the information revealed regarding his combat abilities are canon and officially recognized.

it sounds like the quotes you gave us were written for gameplay purposes...but if you say so.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Malak has faced multiple opponents simultaneously on not just one but several occassions. The point that you did not get is that in all those cases, his opponents would have co-ordinated their efforts to bring down the Dark Lord, but the powers and talents of Malak were such that he never allowed his opponents to co-ordinate and won even when being outnumbered.

Could you provide these other occasions where he fought multiple opponents to provide some context.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This form of defence is not always reliable. A powerful burst of Force Lightning cannot be successfully stopped by a single Light Saber. Malak was so well versed in Lightning that he could engulf an entire person with it, if he wanted to (check the torturing scene of Bastilla Shan to get an idea). He could use both of his hands to form multiple arcs of lightining and if even a single arc manages to touch the mechanical parts of the Vader, he would be in serious trouble. The all out fight can go both ways but still Malak has an over-all edge and can do better.

Vader tanked strakiller's lightning who's lightning could bring down an at st. And if overcoming a lightsaber with lightning was just a matter of using two hands to cause many arcs then then everyone would have done that to those who try the saber defense. Engulfing someone in in lightning isn't very impressive seeing how wide lightning can be.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]
This is questionable, specially when we are talking about Mechanical Vader. While he was still a good duelist, Malak would be far more acrobatic in his moves during a Light Saber duel. His dueling style is also unique and involves elements of Juyo (as Drew Karpyshyn once revealed to me) and his Light Saber also has a longer hilt than standard ones, thus providing him higher chances to hit his opponents. An enraged ROTJ Luke proved to be a good match for Vader in a duel and Malak can surely do better. If this was ROTS Vader, than you would have a point.]

Vader has often defeated quicker opponents like Aurra Sing who he owned speed wise. Vader's dueling style is also unique
and used elements from every style of combat- lets also not forget that starkiller used Juyo guess who could have taught him that. Malak's lightsaber's length advantage is voided by the fact that Vader's lightsaber is also longer then average. Luke would disagree with you in this quote: And there was a further matter. In his battles with Darth Vader and the Emperor, Luke felt he had never truly tested his powers to the limits. Vader had sought only to turn him, had kept Luke alive. Yet Luke had no illusions that Gethzerion would be so lenient.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Minor inconsistencies can be expected from the information provided by different authors regarding a same character. Since you are not new to Star Wars literature, this won't be much of an issue for you to deal with.

Though Revan was the master to Malak's apprentice, the senior Sith Lord soon fell to treachery. Enraged by the death of his master, Darth Malak declared himself the Dark Lord of the Sith and renewed his campaign of hatred and bloodshed. I wouldn't call getting the betrayal of Darth Revan and Malak's ascension to DLOTS to be a minor inconsistency. All he says is that Revan fell to treachery no mention of Malak's role and he says that Malak was enraged by it, which is obviously not true.

But as AutoKrat said the source is very pretty outdated and btw quotes like devastating Dark Side power and struck terror into the hearts of his former allies are not that hard to come by, the first paragraph of Darth Vader's bio in the databank, Vader was called the scourge of the Jedi, a master of the dark side of the Force. You need more to back it up then a quote.

This is questionable, specially when we are talking about Mechanical Vader. While he was still a good duelist, Malak would be far more acrobatic in his moves during a Light Saber duel. His dueling style is also unique and involves elements of Juyo (as Drew Karpyshyn once revealed to me) and his Light Saber also has a longer hilt than standard ones, thus providing him higher chances to hit his opponents.

I'll let the others make an argument for Vader since I haven't read RODV or TFU yet. But I'm going to need more proof then you passing on Drew's words with nothing to back them not that it matter because as Gideon stated Vader used attacks/methods from all forms of lightsaber combat. Also what evidence is there that a 2 meter or a 6.5 foot Malak would all that acrobatic, I'm willing to bet that some of the jedi Vader has fought have been a lot more acrobatic then Malak.

An enraged ROTJ Luke proved to be a good match for Vader in a duel and Malak can surely do better. If this was ROTS Vader, than you would have a point.

Also an enraged Obiwan put a better duel when using the dark side vs Darth Maul then Anoon Bondara does that make TPM Obiwan>Anoon? No.

Originally posted by Autokrat
The sourcebooks produced by WoC are actually canon; however, Legend is using a rather outdated one. There is in fact a Kotor Sourcebook with updated canon in it.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

As far as I'm aware the article Legend used is not in a source book and are you referring to the kotor campaign guide that recently came out?

Yes, that's what I was referring to.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Malak will be able to defeat the ANH incarnation of Vader in most situations.

And don't try to argue that malak will beat him in a saber duel simply because he is "more acrobatic", apparantly you had never read crimson empire or read TFU in which he neary kills starkiller in their final duel despite SK being far more agile and acrobatic than malak ever was.

I'm back btw after a 30 day ban.

BTW what even suggested that both vader and obiwan were going all out in the death star? For one look at the size of the area they were dueling in, neither one of them would want to perform acrobatic moves without the risk of getting cleaved in half(considering thats what happened to vader in ROTS). Talk about vaders "ub3r tk" not being utilised in ANH, well was there anything he could grab and chunk at obi wan? All i saw was an empty hall way.

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
You DO know that just a year or 2 prior to ANH that vader was toppling massive structures "as durable as steel" with relative ease, ragdolling a jedi knight, tanked lightning that destroyed an ATAT, casually choking and pwning a jedi that was able to rip part of a space station apart and send the entire space station into critical condition, survive a telekinetic storm that SK used to defeat him, survive a blast that destroyed part of the death star as well as being able to nearly throttle and kill starkiller before he achieved his clarity and kick vaders ass.

And don't try to argue that malak will beat him in a saber duel simply because he is "more acrobatic", apparantly you had never read crimson empire or read TFU in which he neary kills starkiller in their final duel despite SK being far more agile and acrobatic than malak ever was.

I'm back btw after a 30 day ban.

BTW what even suggested that both vader and obiwan were going all out in the death star? For one look at the size of the area they were dueling in, neither one of them would want to perform acrobatic moves without the risk of getting cleaved in half(considering thats what happened to vader in ROTS). Talk about vaders "ub3r tk" not being utilised in ANH, well was there anything he could grab and chunk at obi wan? All i saw was an empty hall way.

Welcome back 💃

To add to what arnold said even starkiller realized he couldn't beat Vader using the dark side if he couldn't do it then Malak definitely isn't gonna get out of this alive.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11

that is so awesome .. I love that pic lol

Good to have you back Ivalice and watch what you say to people so you don't get a permaban. 😛

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

Fanskywalker already gave you the quote from "The Courtship of Princess Leia," but the ROTJ novel states that from the very begining of the duel on the death star, that Luke was using his anger (darkside) for the first half of the duel including the scene where Vader was kicked down the steps, all the while he was trying to kill Luke. Then Luke went apeshit using the DS and his raw power(much greater then Malak's) in the last part of the duel and caught Vader completely off guard.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Malak takes the force

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Malak is a straightforward lightsaber combatant. [b] and he can increase his damage through Sith Rage when desired.

Source: Champions of the Force

Well.. I could download a mod that had bastila completly pwn Malak and then it goes to the end cut scene and credits.. then I could say Bastila wtfpwned Malak..

Originally posted by Faunus
I presume you're giving this to Malak because he can wield Force-lightning. Well, that may be true, but it doesn't mean Vader can't block it. Rule of Two demonstrates that it is possible to telekinetically attempt to stop oncoming lightning.

Then again, Malak's a twit. Might think that Vader's suit and haggard breathing is actually a sign of his Lightning-immunity and is only acting.

Originally posted by kotorfan
Well.. I could download a mod that had bastila completly pwn Malak and then it goes to the end cut scene and credits.. then I could say Bastila wtfpwned Malak..

What a weak argument. Legend is wrong, but you are too. If you download a mod, you will be seeing non-canon content. This post makes me doubt in the potential of the human race.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Malak is a straightforward lightsaber combatant. and he can increase his damage through Sith Rage when desired.

Source: Champions of the Force

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is questionable, specially when we are talking about Mechanical Vader. While he was still a good duelist, Malak would be far more acrobatic in his moves during a Light Saber duel. His dueling style is also unique and involves elements of Juyo (as Drew Karpyshyn once revealed to me) and his Light Saber also has a longer hilt than standard ones, thus providing him higher chances to hit his opponents. An enraged ROTJ Luke proved to be a good match for Vader in a duel and Malak can surely do better. If this was ROTS Vader, than you would have a point.

Proof (from a source) that his style is unique? Proof that a longer saber is more likely to hit? Proof that it's longer at all? None of this has been substantiated. Do so.

An enraged Luke commands the Skywalker bloodline's natural power with a Dark Side "tap" of the same nature that allowed Kenobi to bisect Maul. Luke at that point was darn strong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Malak can defeat Mechanical Vader in an all out fight. He has an over-all edge in combative abilities in this case.

Originally posted by Lucien A
Still though, Malakai was profocient in Force Lightning.