Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Ever hear of the incident at "Ruby Ridge" look it up.And Yes there is a conspiracy! A hand full of men controlling the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ
I implore everyone to watch all 5 parts.
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1992...a little bit before this so called errosion of civil liberties...you fail
if it's happening then why am i no less free today than i was 10 years ago?
the point is...since sept 11th there has been huge talk about civil liberties being erroded...yet i have never once met a single person that has been grossly affected by it bar the issue with taking longer to fly on planes and the thing post glasgow airport bombing with the size of hand luggage and liquids on flights which have now been relaxed
fair enough you hear the odd news story about some idiot at an airport making a joke about having a bomb and then being questioned for days by the authorities...and that's clearly a bit of an overreaction but that's about it
all the moaning about CCTV cameras is clearly stupid as in every incident of major crime CCTV plays a huge part in identifying and catching people responsible...it happened on 9/11...it happened in the London bombings...it happens every day in bank robberies and street crime...so why the problem?...they're hardly peeking in people's windows 24/7
although i do personally know a few CCTV operators and they've told me about some funny stuff...like having competitions to see who can find the strangest sights...one of them seeing an entire herd of deer walking town Arbroath high street
Originally posted by jaden101
i think it's far more the case that it's the small number of people whom news laws have been used on rather than a small number of people who they haven't....and in almost every case these people have been part of an investigation for a specific reason...it's not as if the authorities are randomly picking people and using laws against themgranted you hear bizarre stories about how anti terror laws are being used to make sure people are separating their rubbish into the appropriate recycling bins and if they aren't then they are prosecuted...but one thing i've noticed is that i've never heard of a single incident where it's actually happened...it's just news stations saying it COULD happen
fair enough, however, that doesn't mean the potential groundwork has been laid
government doesn't give up its power very easily, so its likely those things which could be abused will never go away. How long until they just become the "norm", you know?
Originally posted by jaden101
that's an entirely different thing altogether though...the video is saying that people are having their houses broken into by the FBI who are faking robberies in order to plant bugs in peoples houses...any you know of heard about this actually happening to?
ok, totally, but, from my own and lycanthrope's reply, it did look like you were saying there were no abuses of personal liberty occuring, not that the specific things mentioned in the video were only "could happen-s" and ya, I agree with you, other than to say I don't think the government should have the ability to maybe do that (aside from the fact they get to determine what they are allowed to do anyways...)
Originally posted by inimalist
fair enough, however, that doesn't mean the potential groundwork has been laidgovernment doesn't give up its power very easily, so its likely those things which could be abused will never go away. How long until they just become the "norm", you know?
ok, totally, but, from my own and lycanthrope's reply, it did look like you were saying there were no abuses of personal liberty occuring, not that the specific things mentioned in the video were only "could happen-s" and ya, I agree with you, other than to say I don't think the government should have the ability to maybe do that (aside from the fact they get to determine what they are allowed to do anyways...)
once it's law it is the norm that it can be used...but you hardly hear people constantly moaning about some of the silly laws that is still on the statute books from years ago
for example if someone puts a stamp on a letter upside down, in the UK, then they can be prosecuted for treason (the only thing still punishable by death in the UK)...it's been law for years...doesn't mean it ever gets applied
legally you're not allowed to die in the houses of parliment
legally you're still not allowed to eat mince pies on christmas day in the UK
you're not allowed to enter the houses of parliment wearing a suit of armour
it's illegal to walk down a path in a public park with 3 childrens prams side by side
any of these ever get enforced?...anyone ever see anyone moaning about these laws existing?
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
It shouldn't be closed for conspiracy. Our rights are being stifled, but quietly. The first amendment is being trampled on. The Amero thread was closed for conspiracy but that has become a very relevant issue.
you are right. the other thread should'nt of been closed either
as for jaden saying its not effecting him, well here is something that i posted on here before:
As Long As You're Not Doing Anything Wrong, You Have Nothing To Worry About
Tired cliche to cover big brother agenda doesn't wash anymore
I am personally sick of hearing the above phrase used whenever the latest surveillance tool is trotted out and used on the public as a means of control. It's worn out and doesn't work anymore. People are finally beginning to stop laughing at the madness of the big brother society, but will it be too late when people begin to see the seriousness of the threat?
Endlessly used as an excuse to pass into everyday use policies and technology that are eroding our freedoms and giving our governments more control and responsibility over our lives are phrases such as "Why worry if you have nothing to hide?"
Since when were long established civil liberties and the citizen's right to privacy replaced with this "new freedom", this "freedom lite" shall we call it, this guilty until proven innocent mantra?
The problem lies with what is considered to be "something to hide". I don't want to be filmed 24 hours a day, everywhere I go, does that mean I've got something to hide? I don't much like the idea of being fingerprinted if i want to go into a bar, does that mean I have got something to hide? Yes, if I am an enemy of the gestapo in the 1930s, but no if I am a free citizen in 21st century Britain or America.
Lets take a look at a few of the latest headlines to feature in our big brother news section:
http://www.infowars.net/articles/no...6/221106Fox.htmFox News Trumpets Pentagon Spy Drones Listening In On Americans
"It's the first time anywhere in the United States that one of these big things has flown on an official air combat command mission," Steve Doocy noted. Brian Kilmeade followed up: "Well, you know what? I love it. They gotta be listening in, listening to the right people. If they're listening in at my house, they're gonna be bored to tears." Doocy jumped in to say that he "wasn't sure" that the drone could listen in, but "they can certainly see what's going on in your back yard. ... I don't think you have anything to worry about as long as you're not doing anything against the law."
Child database 'will ruin family privacy'
Parents will be devalued and family privacy shattered by the mass surveillance of all 12 million children in England and Wales, says a report today commissioned by Parliament's Information Commissioner. In what is likely to be a major embarrassment to Tony Blair, it says proposals for a £224 million database containing details of every child will waste millions of pounds, undermine parental authority and actually put children in more danger. Mr Blair defended the super nanny idea saying it was right to give families a "helping hand". "No one's talking about interfering with normal family life," he added.
Documents show U.S. Defense Department tracked anti-Iraq war activities
An anti-terrorist database used by the Defense Department in an effort to prevent attacks on military installations included intelligence tips about antiwar planning meetings held at churches, libraries, college campuses and other locations, newly disclosed documents show. McPhearson said he found the references to his group in the Talon database unsurprising and he said the group continued to use public settings and the Internet to plan its protests. "We don't have anything to hide," he said. "We're not doing anything illegal."
So in just three examples there, you could be watched in your own home by a military surveillance plane, all aspects of your kids' lives could be put on a database to make sure you are an adequate parent, and if you don't agree with a government policy you may be surveilled and placed on an anti-terrorist database. The information gathered will not be available to you but will be available to the government and the government's intelligence personnel.
Is all that OK so long as you have "nothing to hide"? Are you comfortable with that? Some may say "yeah but it probably won't happen to me." Well, you'll never know until your actions are deemed to be categorized by the authorities as "something wrong".
There are those who still deny that we have moved into a big brother society and that it affects their lives at all. For those who immediately think this applies to them, please Watch this film
http://www.infowars.net/articles/november2006/211106_b_BB.htm
These people, far from living in denial, have just not noticed all the methods of surveillance that they are under. This is not surprising, given that the very essance of surveillance is that it is covert. It is not arrogant or elitist to say this, after all how many people really know what the TALON programme is or how RFID works?
This is the most dangerous aspect of the big brother society, the fact that it is creeping and that there is always scope for expansion. How many times is it relevant to say "this will not erode your liberties" about another form of surveillance? If you took every aspect of the big brother society featured in the film linked above and suddenly introduced it all at once into a society where it was unknown, would the people therein consider it to be a threat to their liberties?
I think they'd consider it to be an all out war on them.
There is a government ploy of saying that if you have nothing to hide in our modern society you should react to these measures by being bold, up front and proud that you are a law abiding citizen, you should revel in the big brother society and not shrink away and try to avoid it.
In this sense the new forms of technology being used for surveillance and information gathering are pushed as progressive and a step in the right direction when they are in fact the exact opposite. Strip away all the technology and the myth that they keep you any safer (put everything under surveillance and you end up missing the real threats) and you are essentially left with a never ending multiplication of methods of covertly gathering information on everything you do. In a dictatorship this is progressive, in a free society it is regressive.
Originally posted by jaden101
once it's law it is the norm that it can be used...but you hardly hear people constantly moaning about some of the silly laws that is still on the statute books from years agofor example if someone puts a stamp on a letter upside down, in the UK, then they can be prosecuted for treason (the only thing still punishable by death in the UK)...it's been law for years...doesn't mean it ever gets applied
legally you're not allowed to die in the houses of parliment
legally you're still not allowed to eat mince pies on christmas day in the UK
you're not allowed to enter the houses of parliment wearing a suit of armour
it's illegal to walk down a path in a public park with 3 childrens prams side by side
any of these ever get enforced?...anyone ever see anyone moaning about these laws existing?
indeed
however, I think it would be a waste of both our time for me to have to point out the obvious distinctions between giving more, unconstitutional, powers to the police and law enforcement agencies (who already have problems showing restraint in regards to civil rights) and such trivial laws.
Maybe you are right, actually I hope you are.
i think you are seeing my point...it's not that laws exist...it's how they are applied...and i think there is alot...and i mean ALOT of scaremongering with regards to how laws could be applied and not how they are applied
granted there have been cases where law enforcement have gotten overzealous and seriously ****ed up...the Jean-Charles De Menezes case in the UK that is currently going on is an example of how an atmosphere of fear in the wake of an attack can lead to terrible consequences...but everyone acknowledges that it was a horrendous mistake and people who implemented it are paying with their jobs and liberties...just as they did in the wake of the Ruby Ridge incident
but all this "cell phones can be used to spy on you even when they're off" is just utter nonsense unless the phone is physically tampered with and thus you'd have to have been identified as worth watching for some reason in the 1st place...and they've been using bugs for years in cases like that
the allegation that it's being used continuously against everyone is just nonsense
of course
even just the necessary logistics of monitoring everyone would make it nearly impossible.
I do however think it is wise to stand against laws that violate the constitution, regardless of how they are applied.
And while the gvt was held accountable at Ruby Ridge, they were not at Waco and in many other similar circumstances. Honestly, it took them shooting a woman in the face with a sniper rifle while she was holding an infant for the government to finally declare that they might have made a mistake.
but these incidents are in a huge minority...authorities are constantly applying laws and catching people who deserve to be caught with no press coverage because them catching a terrorist in the middle of planning an attack isn't news worthy
the problem government has is that they can act, in the aftermath of an attack yet not be seen to act and they would be accused of doing nothing...or they can be seen to be doing something (the tanks at heathrow for example) and be accused of overreacting
there isn't really a balance that everyone will accept...someone will always criticise either saying they are doing too much or not doing enough.