Originally posted by Lucien A
Great. He has excellent spatial-TK relations. He can do that up close too. What I find highly impressive his lifting up a massive million ton ship. Both are cool things to do. But space and time are physically weightless, a Star Destroyer is slightly heavier.
To reach out, in less than a second, and grip someone with the force, who is not even near you, shows great command of the force.
No one said he lifted space or time, so what are you talking about?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66I just hit you with a keyboard, now I have no keyboard.
To reach out, in less than a second, and grip someone with the force, who is not even near you, shows great command of the force.No one said he lifted space or time, so what are you talking about?
Yes he choked him across lightyears. But wasn't that when he was seeing Xizor through a hologram? Traversing your will through space and time is impressive, but until Vader picks up a freaking Star Destroyer... 'kay, a Star Destroyer... not a wind pipe.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I don't think you truly understand how impressive a feat like that is. Of course it would be easier for Nihilus to lift something heavier that is in front of him, than it would be for Vader to grip something lightyears away.
actually sidious. you seem to be misunderstanding mister joker here.
yes, vader choked someone lightyears away. but he did through HOLOGRAMS and TRANSMISSIONS. vader never just willingly choked any person without seeing them. in case you can't read lucien said:
Yes he choked him across lightyears. But wasn't that when he was seeing Xizor through a hologram? Traversing your will through space and time is impressive
so when did he never understand the power of such a feat?....
what the point is here: is choking a freaking human who only weighs pounds is no where near the scale of lifting a ship which is hundreds of thousand or even millions of tons.....mind you while this ship was likely captured in malachor 5's messed up gravitational pull. how can you think a choke is even near as impressive?
actually sidious. you seem to be misunderstanding mister joker here.
yes, vader choked someone lightyears away. but he did through HOLOGRAMS and TRANSMISSIONS. vader never just willingly choked any person without seeing them. in case you can't read lucien said:
No i understand what he is saying. A hologram is just a visual of a person, not the real thing. He is not crushing the visual, he his crushing the actual person who is lightyears away. The visual only gives Vader an idea of where the person is. It still does not change the fact that his power reached across great distances.
so when did he never understand the power of such a feat?....what the point is here: is choking a freaking human who only weighs pounds is no where near the scale of lifting a ship which is hundreds of thousand or even millions of tons
Except i am not comparing a mere force choke, but the distance in which Vader was able to do so.
.....mind you while this ship was likely captured in malachor 5's messed up gravitational pull. how can you think a choke is even near as impressive?
Again, no i am not comparing the force choke alone, but the distance in which it happened, and the time it took. Vader's will actually traveled at greater speed than light.
Now if i compare Vader's force choke of admiral Motti, then i would be ridiculous.
Originally posted by sigma-ct42Thank you, I like you.
actually sidious. you seem to be misunderstanding mister joker here.
yes, vader choked someone lightyears away. but he did through HOLOGRAMS and TRANSMISSIONS. vader never just willingly choked any person without seeing them. in case you can't read lucien said:so when did he never understand the power of such a feat?....
what the point is here: is choking a freaking human who only weighs pounds is no where near the scale of lifting a ship which is hundreds of thousand or even millions of tons.....mind you while this ship was likely captured in malachor 5's messed up gravitational pull. how can you think a choke is even near as impressive?
And Sids, really... just think of the math: Vader choking a lifeform's throat weighing at several pounds of muscles and sinue. He used a live visual of the being to focus on him. That's spatial-awareness. Impressive, certainly. But what would be "Jesus Christ, REALLY?" impressive, is if he just imagined Xizor and choked him. No visuals at all. Then again, other beings have used the Force to speak to beings across the agalxy without seeing them, ala Palpatine-Mara Jade. VAder is simply performing his usual move over a greater distance, but is still reliant on visuals.
And then you have Nihilus: Lifts millions of tons of metal out of the depths of a ruined planet. That's strength. In a Force fight----Force choking over a long distance through use of a hologram, or dropping a starship on your head.......... I wonder what's more effective.
The visual only gives Vader an idea of where the person is. It still does not change the fact that his power reached across great distances.
who said it did change anything? yes vader has great spatial control over his tk. it doesn't change the fact he did it only when he "knew" where they were due the holograms/transmissions...
Again, no i am not comparing the force choke alone, but the distance in which it happened, and the time it took. Vader's will actually traveled at greater speed than light.
for the last time we know. no one has doubted that it was indeed a great feat. but it still can't compare to nihilus.
Thank you, I like you.
my pleasure.
Originally posted by Lucien A
Thank you, I like you.And Sids, really... just think of the math: Vader choking a lifeform's throat weighing at several pounds of muscles and sinue. He used a live visual of the being to focus on him.
It still does not change the fact that his power reached across great distances. He did not choke the visual, he still choked the person lightyears away. The visual allowed Vader to know the location of Xizor, so that Vader can reach out and feel him, and use the force around him.
That's spatial-awareness. Impressive, certainly. But what would be "Jesus Christ, REALLY?" impressive, is if he just imagined Xizor and choked him. No visuals at all.
Except there is an entire galaxy filled with life forms. It would take hours and hours of meditation for Vader to find Xizor. The visual allowed Vader to know of his location. It had nothing to do with focusing his power. It ain't a voodoo doll.
Then again, other beings have used the Force to speak to beings across the agalxy without seeing them, ala Palpatine-Mara Jade. VAder is simply performing his usual move over a greater distance, but is still reliant on visuals.
Using telepathy across great distances is not like using TK against someone across great distances.
Besides Palpatine was a bad example. He was one of the most powerful force users in history, and Mara also had a force link to him.
And then you have Nihilus: Lifts millions of tons of metal out of the depths of a ruined planet. That's strength. In a Force fight----Force choking over a long distance through use of a hologram, or dropping a starship on your head.......... I wonder what's more effective.
Oh yeah, Vader is going to stand there, and watch Nihilus lift a mile-long ship in the air, and then drop it on him. Are they fighting a mile apart from each other? If so, it would be easy for Vader to feel Nihilus through the force, and then force choke him. Now that would be a better arguement.
Vader only needs to know the exact location of the person to use TK against them. I know this because Jorus C'baoth used force grip against someone, who was in a different ship, without a live visual.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Since Nihilus's telekinesis allowed him to pick up a starship... he can't do anything else with it.
Oh yeah, Vader is going to stand there, and watch Nihilus lift a mile-long ship in the air, and then drop it on him. Are they fighting a mile apart from each other?
Can't beat that logic.
If so, it would be easy for Vader to feel Nihilus through the force, and then force choke him.Nope haha because Vader needs to be lightyears away to choke someone because that's how he did it and theres no other way to do it.
Vader only needs to know the exact location of the person to use TK against them. I know this because Jorus C'baoth used force grip against someone, who was in a different ship, without a live visual.You're arguing in circles.
Originally posted by Faunus
Since Nihilus's telekinesis allowed him to pick up a starship... he can't do anything else with it.Can't beat that logic.
You don't make sense. It would take time for Nihilus to lift a mile-long ship and throw it. Do you think Vader would be standing there in such awe that he would be motion-less?
Nope haha because Vader needs to be lightyears away to choke someone because that's how he did it and theres no other way to do it.
Except there is. We see him choking people in the same room, in other rooms, and also lightyears away. We also see Jorus grip someone on another ship, and he is not as strong as Vader
Don't compare that arguement to mine, because lifting a ship, and throwing it at great speed, is a lot harder than just lifting it alone. But, force gripping someone who is lightyears away, would be harder than to do so to someone within a mile radius. So it makes sense that if Vader is able to reach out lightyears away with the force, he can reach out a mile away.
You're arguing in circles.
So is everyone else.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You don't make sense. It would take time for Nihilus to lift a mile-long ship and throw it. Do you think Vader would be standing there in such awe that he would be motion-less?
This has to be a bad joke. I will (try) to explain it to you. N. has enough strength with TK to move a ship. He can apply X amount of force, where X=ship moving. He can apply X in any way he wants. His power is not confined to ship moving- he could crush Vader's armor, throw things at him, or throw Vader. N.'s TK is strong enough to move a ship. This does not mean that N's TK can only move a ship.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except there is. We see him choking people in the same room, in other rooms, and also lightyears away. We also see Jorus grip someone on another ship, and he is not as strong as Vader
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Don't compare that arguement to mine, because lifting a ship, and throwing it at great speed, is a lot harder than just lifting it alone. But, force gripping someone who is lightyears away, would be harder than to do so to someone within a mile radius. So it makes sense that if Vader is able to reach out lightyears away with the force, he can reach out a mile away.
Originally posted by Red NemesisThis has to be a bad joke. I will (try) to explain it to you. N. has enough strength with TK to move a ship. He can apply X amount of force, where X=ship moving. He can apply X in any way he wants. His power is not confined to ship moving- he could crush Vader's armor, throw things at him, or throw Vader. N.'s TK is strong enough to move a ship. This does not mean that N's TK can only move a ship.
Lets compare...
Vader:
a) tore down entire huts quite casually.
b) tore down a bridge, and use its pieces as missiles.
c) caught a massive pillar in mid-air, and redirected it.
d) destroyed Palpatine's lab, even though he was not as masterful with the force then.
e) force gripped Xizor, who was lightyears away. That alone shows great skill and proficiency, than anything else Vader has demonstrated as far as TK. Maybe not a whole lot of raw power, but extraordinary skill.
Nihilus:
a) lifted a ship.
b) choked Visas.
All of the things Vader did with ease, more than make up for a one time thing Nihilus did with a ship.
You have not shown that the difficulty in Force usage increases with distance.
I thought it was common sense, seeing how Sidious took time to write about how great of a skill it was.
Also if it was easy, why was Jorus applauded for doing so.
An all pervasive mystical field laughs in the face of space/time.
Says who? Yoda, who also says size meant nothing?
Why would it be more difficult? All you have said here is that Force gripping someone from far away is tough. Proof? [/B]
Read above.
Do you actually think reaching out across the vast distance of space instantly is an easy technique, and that any force user can do it? If so the burden of proof would be on you.
Nihilus has shown us a greater example of raw power with TK than Vader, but Vader has shown more skill, and his skill greatly makes up for the difference. Vader has not only showed great skill, but also a lot of raw power. Put the two together, and he surpasses Nihilus with TK.
Kyp even said skill was better than raw power.
Lets compare...
Vader:
a) tore down entire huts quite casually.
b) tore down a bridge, and use its pieces as missiles.
c) caught a massive pillar in mid-air, and redirected it.
d) destroyed Palpatine's lab, even though he was not as masterful with the force then.
e) force gripped Xizor, who was lightyears away. That alone shows great skill and proficiency, than anything else Vader has demonstrated as far as TK. Maybe not a whole lot of raw power, but extraordinary skill.
Nihilus:
a) lifted a ship.
b) choked Visas.
All of the things Vader did with ease, more than make up for a one time thing Nihilus did with a ship.
when did vader ever lift a ship? are you trying to insinuate that using tk to destroy a bridge>>lifting a 1200 mile long ship?
You don't make sense. It would take time for Nihilus to lift a mile-long ship and throw it.
how on earth can you be so sure it took nihilus long to do so? for all we know he could have accomplished it in an instant.
Kyp even said skill was better than raw power.
that is opinion.not fact.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Let's think, first.
Lets compare...
Vader:Tore down one hut, no indication to my knowledge of it being done "casually."a) tore down entire huts quite casually.
b) tore down a bridge, and use its pieces as missiles.A bridge made of wood.
c) caught a massive pillar in mid-air, and redirected it.Right before getting owned by a man who barely managed to redirect a falling Star Destroyer; a far cry from pulling a similarly-sized object against gravity.
d) destroyed Palpatine's lab, even though he was not as masterful with the force then.He destroyed medical droids and dented the walls of a lab with an uncontrolled scream.
Arca Jeth and Mace Windu destroyed battle droids in the midst of combat, the latter doing so while weaving between blaster bolts and sliding on his back.
e) force gripped Xizor, who was lightyears away. That alone shows great skill and proficiency, than anything else Vader has demonstrated as far as TK. Maybe not a whole lot of raw power, but extraordinary skill.A dying Mara Jade could stroke her husband's hair from across the galaxy. A dead Freedon Nadd could attack a Jedi Master from across the galaxy.
Neither had a visual aid.
Nihilus:The ship weighing tens or hundreds of thousands of tons, and being pulled out of a gravity well (against the pull of gravity, or for all intents and purposes, "up"😉 and into space. Consider that the man who thoroughly bested Vader in a contest of the Force barely managed to redirect a slightly larger ship when it was falling to the ground, and then failed to stop it even with the assistance of what one can only presume would be absurd amounts of drag and friction.a) lifted a ship.
b) choked Visas.
All of the things Vader did with ease, more than make up for a one time thing Nihilus did with a ship.No they don't; they don't even come close, because none of those feats compare. By your logic, the guy who benches 200, 300, 400, and 500 pounds on separate occasions is more impressive than the guy who benches 10,000. And I suppose Obi-Wan is a better swordsman than Yoda, because he bested Asajj Ventress, General Grievous, Darth Vader, and A'Sharad Hett and all Yoda did was beat Dooku.
Quantity < Quality.
I thought it was common sense, seeing how Sidious took time to write about how great of a skill it was.No one said it was easy, genius. You're just blowing it out of proportion.Also if it was easy, why was Jorus applauded for doing so.
A dying Mara Jade could stroke Luke's hair from across the galaxy with the Force. A dead Freedon Nadd could attack someone (Vodo) from across the galaxy with the Force. Neither used or required a visual aid.
Says who? Yoda, who also says size meant nothing?WTF?
Read above.Dying and dead people can do it without a visual aid.Do you actually think reaching out across the vast distance of space instantly is an easy technique, and that any force user can do it? If so the burden of proof would be on you.
Nihilus has shown us a greater example of raw power with TK than Vader, but Vader has shown more skill, and his skill greatly makes up for the difference. Vader has not only showed great skill, but also a lot of raw power. Put the two together, and he surpasses Nihilus with TK.Being more skilled in the Force doesn't automatically make someone better than an individual of superior power. That skill needs to actually make up the difference in raw power. Vader, mastery acknowledged, has never displayed ability on par with that of Nihilus. The singular feat of tearing a starship made of thousands of tons of metal out of a gravity well (that would be moving against any resistance) while keeping it intact completely eclipses Vader's greatest showings.
Kyp even said skill was better than raw power.Context, and Kyp wasn't butchering logic.
If you want to argue that Vader is more versatile, go right ahead. There would be no proof outside of cut-content to suggest that Nihilus is the most varied Force-user out there. But in a contest of overall power based on demonstrated feats, Vader loses out miserably.
Originally posted by sigma-ct42Twelve hundred meters, bro. 😉
when did vader ever lift a ship? are you trying to insinuate that using tk to destroy a bridge>>lifting a 1200 mile long ship?
how on earth can you be so sure it took nihilus long to do so? for all we know he could have accomplished it in an instant.Whoever makes the claim has to prove it. If you say he did it instantly - I recognize that thus far you haven't - you would need to prove it.
that is opinion.not fact.Superior mastery of the Force can go a long way to make up for a comparative lack of raw power. See Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by sigma-ct42
when did vader ever lift a ship?
Ok? And when did Nihilus ever crush massive huts that were as strong as durasteel.
are you trying to insinuate that using tk to destroy a bridge>>lifting a 1200 mile long ship?
And are you insinuating that because Nihilus lifted a ship one time, automatically makes him superior to Vader in TK.
a lot of feats with raw power + A great showing of skill > A one time showing of great raw power.
how on earth can you be so sure it took nihilus long to do so? for all we know he could have accomplished it in an instant.
Doubt it happened in an instance. Even if it did, it doesn't prove that he can just pick up ships and force throw them at great speed. Besides he would have to be pretty far from Vader to crush Vader with a ship, without crushing himself. If he is a mile away from Vader, by the time Nihilus lifted the ship in the air, Vader can already reach out with the force and crush him
that is opinion.not fact.
I would take his word for it before i took yours, seeing that he is a force user, and you are not.
Kyp was not stating an opinion, he was stating a fact about himself.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66I can crush a cardboard box. I guess that means the guy who can yank a few tons of cardboard straight up into the air but has never actually crushed a cardboard box can't crush said box. It's a different application of the same type of force, except that one individual is capable of exerting far more of that force than the other.
Ok? And when did Nihilus ever crush massive huts that were as strong as durasteel.
And are you insinuating that because Nihilus lifted a ship one time, automatically makes him superior to Vader in TK.Yep. The best feats win out; that's how things have always been.
a lot of feats with raw power + A great showing of skill > A one time showing of great raw power.No. Not when "a lot of feats of raw power" are performed on a scale that isn't remotely comparable to the singular showing.
Doubt it happened in an instance. Even if it did, it doesn't prove that he can just pick up ships and force throw them at great speed. Besides he would have to be pretty far from Vader to crush Vader with a ship, without crushing himself. If he is a mile away from Vader, by the time Nihilus lifted the ship in the air, Vader can already reach out with the force and crush himYou're quickly convincing me that you're completely hopeless.
Nihilus does not need to throw a starship at Vader to hurt him. His telekinetic prowess is such that he is capable of such a feat; it does not mean that that's all he can do with it. In fact, we already know it's not all he can do because we see him choking Visas and throwing Kreia into a pillar.
And in order to hurt someone with the Force you would have to bypass whatever defenses they have erected. That can't be done against someone who's better than you.
No they don't; they don't even come close, because none of those feats compare. By your logic, the guy who benches 200, 300, 400, and 500 pounds on separate occasions is more impressive than the guy who benches 10,000.
Oh ok so you want to use that type of arguement. By your logic the guy who lifts 300 pounds would be more impressive than the guy who can crush a 100 pound dumbbell to pieces.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Because lifting 300 pounds takes more force than crushing a 100 pound dumbbell?
Oh ok so you want to use that type of arguement. By your logic the guy who lifts 300 pounds would be more impressive than the guy who can crush a 100 pound dumbbell to pieces.
Again; think.
Edit: Not that the weight of the dumbbell would actually directly affect how hard it would be to crush. Your analogy is atrocious.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66Buddy, I liked you at first, but your persisting against all logic. Keep at it much longer and you'll be awarded the Nebaris Medal of "Honour."
Oh ok so you want to use that type of arguement. By your logic the guy who lifts 300 pounds would be more impressive than the guy who can crush a 100 pound dumbbell to pieces.
P.S. The quotations are on the medal.