Darth Vader vs Darth Nihilus

Originally posted by Faunus
I can crush a cardboard box. I guess that means the guy who can yank a few tons of cardboard straight up into the air but has never actually crushed a cardboard box can't crush said box. It's a different application of the same type of force, except that one individual is capable of exerting far more of that force than the other.

That was a very bad example. I know a lot of five-year-olds, who are not even well developed as far as strength, that can crush cardboard boxes. Can you name a lot of force users who can crush huts that are as STRONG AS DURASTEEL?

Yep. The best feats win out; that's how things have always been.

Ok great so my favorite character(Darth Sidious) is no doubt the most powerful force user in history. Not even LOTF Luke is as powerful as him, since Luke has never shown the power to be able to rip holes in space/time, and crush entire fleets of ships.

No. Not when "a lot of feats of raw power" are performed on a scale that isn't remotely comparable to the singular showing.

Yes it does, when Vader does it with seeming ease. Nothing shows that Vader had an extremely hard time doing those feats.

Kyp once lifted the sun crusher, but said he would not be able to do so again if he wanted to, even though he was more powerful and more skilled.

Nihilus was in great desperation, and had no other choice but to lift Ravager in order to escape. Vader was never in that type of situation.

It is kinda like the woman who once, in desperation to save her child, lifted a car. That does not make her stronger than a guy who goes to the Gym everyday, and lifts 185 with ease.

Nihilus does not need to throw a starship at Vader to hurt him. His telekinetic prowess is such that he is capable of such a feat; it does not mean that that's all he can do with it. In fact, we already know it's not all he can do because we see him choking Visas and throwing Kreia into a pillar.

Ok, so since Palpatine is able to create huge force storms and crush entire fleets, means he can easily create human sized ones and suck up any opponent.

And in order to hurt someone with the Force you would have to bypass whatever defenses they have erected. That can't be done against someone who's better than you.

You still have not proved that Nihilus, who one time lifted a ship, in great desperation, makes him superior to Vader, who has shown that he is not lacking in raw power.

Originally posted by Faunus
Because lifting 300 pounds takes more force than crushing a 100 pound dumbbell?

Again; think.

Edit: Not that the weight of the dumbbell would actually directly affect how hard it would be to crush. Your analogy is atrocious.

What? Are you serious? My dad can bench 350, but there is no way in hell he can crush a 100 pound dumbell. That is impossible to do.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I know this because Jorus C'baoth used force grip against someone, who was in a different ship, without a live visual.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That was a very bad example. I know a lot of five-year-olds, who are not even well developed as far as strength, that can crush cardboard boxes. Can you name a lot of force users who can crush huts that are as STRONG AS DURASTEEL?

Ok great so my favorite character(Darth Sidious) is no doubt the most powerful force user in history. Not even LOTF Luke is as powerful as him, since Luke has never shown the power to be able to rip holes in space/time, and crush entire fleets of ships.

Yes it does, when Vader does it with seeming ease. Nothing shows that Vader had an extremely hard time doing those feats.

Kyp once lifted the sun crusher, but said he would not be able to do so again if he wanted to, even though he was more powerful and more skilled.

2) Dark Apprentice has him remotely powering up the ship and flying it out, not dragging it out.

Nihilus was in great desperation, and had no other choice but to lift Ravager in order to escape.

Prove it.

Vader was never in that type of situation.

It is kinda like the woman who once, in desperation to save her child, lifted a car. That does not make her stronger than a guy who goes to the Gym everyday, and lifts 185 with ease.

Ok, so since Palpatine is able to create huge force storms and crush entire fleets, means he can easily create human sized ones and suck up any opponent.

Once more, Nihilus has already demonstrated usage of telekinesis on a personal scale against Traya and Visas. And of course, your sad attempt at hacking apart the nature of telekinesis fails miserably.

Stop being dense.

You still have not proved that Nihilus, who one time lifted a ship, in great desperation,

makes him superior to Vader, who has shown that he is not lacking in raw power.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? Are you serious? My dad can bench 350, but there is no way in hell he can crush a 100 pound dumbell. That is impossible to do.

Your argument boils down to the question of whether it took more force (in newtons) to lift the Ravager than it took to crush a durasteel hut. Lets think about it. The ravager is more than a kilometer long. It is being held in place by the innate gravitational pull of Malachor V and by the Mass Shadows. Because I can't quantify the Shadows, I will ignore them. Note that this only skews the results to look less impressive- the actual feat would be even more difficult.

Malachor would have to have a (somewhat) similar gravitational pull to Earth for reasons that I do not have room to explain fully here. (Also, in KotOR 2 the gravity behaves as it does on earth.) The pull of earth gravity requires X number of joules to attain escape velocity. Even if we cut this figure in half (b/c of the increased distance to the center of gravity of the planet) we have N. able to harness and apply effectively roughly half of the force necessary to lift the shuttle from the ground. The shuttle is big. Gravity is strong. The force is tremendous. .5 X is a very, very, very big number. To be able to throw around that much force in combat is truly terrifying.

Vader's showing that you are matching the Ravager feat with is that he "crushed a durasteel hut." This does not come remotely close to matching N.'s potential force. Vader was able to muster something like hurricane force winds.

N. removed a massive (enormously so) object from the orbit of a planet. Vader crushed a tin can. There is no comparison.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What? Are you serious? My dad can bench 350, but there is no way in hell he can crush a 100 pound dumbell. That is impossible to do.

You just made his point for him. At least make it a challenge.

Edit: the ship was on the planet's surface, so it would match the shuttle energy (almost) exactly. X > .5X This is even more impressive.

Originally posted by Faunus
I was mocking your logic, moron. It was a rhetorical question, not an answer. Pulling a several thousand-ton starship up against the force of gravity takes more energy than breaking a hut.

Except you are mocking your own logic. When you bench press something, you are lifting it up against the force of gravity. But when you press down with all your physical strength, and try to crush a 100 pound dumbbell, you are actually using the force of gravity against the weight.

BTW i am not honestly admitting that Vader tearing down a huge hut, quite compares to Nihilus lifting the ravager. I was using your poor example of weight-lifting against you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Except you are mocking your own logic. When you bench press something, you are lifting it up against the force of gravity. But when you press down with all your physical strength, and try to crush a 100 pound dumbbell, you are actually using the force of gravity against the weight.

BTW i am not honestly admitting that Vader tearing down a huge hut, quite compares to Nihilus lifting the ravager. I was using your poor example of weight-lifting against you.

Originally posted by Faunus
Twelve hundred meters, bro. 😉

right, sorry my mistake..

Whoever makes the claim has to prove it. If you say he did it instantly - I recognize that thus far you haven't - you would need to prove it.

i wasn't trying to establish it as fact. basically just throwing it in as a possibility.

Superior mastery of the Force can go a long way to make up for a comparative lack of raw power. See Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

true.

huts that are as STRONG AS DURASTEEL

you are comparing a hut. that is as stong as durasteel. probably weighing several tons. compared a battleship logically made from far stronger material(being built for war) that weighs possibly hundreds of thousands of tons? why the heck do you keep arguing against logic?

how can you not see the different weight factors here? that's like me saying a guy who lifted a house is superior to a guy who lifted a aircraft carrier. this has been restated several times,but the millionth's the charm i suspose. the ship nihilus lifted was held in gravitational pull from a planet,coupled with hundred's of thousands of tons weighing further. if you don't understand how dynamic that is..then i just don't know what to say...

Originally posted by Faunus
Can someone else explain this to him please?

Yes someone, please, because you are using very bad examples. It seems as if you were trying to say Vader crushing a huge hut, that is as strong as durasteel, is a simple force feat, by comparing it to you being able to crush a cardboard box, which is very simple to do for a regular human.

Sidious used a Force-storm. Luke doesn't know how to.

Why doesn't he. He did study the book of anger, which tells how a force storm is made.

Still that one feat beats anything Luke as ever shown, so that makes Palpatine better.

Again, i am just using your own logic.

You said he did it "rather casually." Prove it. Narration, pictures, whatever.

Hmm... you got me there. But nothing indicates that Vader had a hard time doing it either.

1) Kyp was partly possessed by the spectre of Exar Kun at the time. He was capable of things he wouldn't normally have been capable of.

2) Dark Apprentice has him remotely powering up the ship and flying it out, not dragging it out.

Ok maybe so. I was just going by what he said. He told Jacen(i believe it was Jacen) that he ripped it out of its gravity well.

... huh?

Prove it.

It was either lift the ship, or stay there and rot.

Sure he was. When Starkiller was kicking his ass.

And who has done nothing that rivals the act of dragging an entire starship through the atmosphere of a planet up against the pull of gravity. You have no case.

Good gracious child.

Yes someone, please, because you are using very bad examples. It seems as if you were trying to say Vader crushing a huge hut, that is as strong as durasteel, is a simple force feat, by comparing it to you being able to crush a cardboard box, which is very simple to do for a regular human.

🙄

Stop using bad arguements and examples.

he isn't. stop being illogical

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes someone, please, because you are using very bad examples. It seems as if you were trying to say Vader crushing a huge hut, that is as strong as durasteel, is a simple force feat, by comparing it to you being able to crush a cardboard box, which is very simple to do for a regular human.

Why doesn't he. He did study the book of anger, which tells how a force storm is made.

Still that one feat beats anything Luke as ever shown, so that makes Palpatine better.

Again, i am just using your own logic.

Hmm... you got me there. But nothing indicates that Vader had a hard time doing it either.

Ok maybe so. I was just going by what he said. He told Jacen(i believe it was Jacen) that he ripped it out of its gravity well.

It was either lift the ship, or stay there and rot.

And how is that the same situation.

I didn't think so neither.

I meant in close combat.

So has Vader against more powerful being, such as Starkiller.

Yoda has lifted heavier things than Sidious. Does that make Yoda better? No. It is obvious in their duel. Sidious has shown to be very proficient with TK. Yoda could have lifted a hundred pods, seeing how he lifted entire landing crafts, which are about a hundred times the size of a pod. Sidious seemed to be a little more proficient with TK.

Stop using bad arguements and examples.

Good gracious child.

Sidious 66, as much as i hate this overpowered character, lets just face it. He can crush mountains with ease with TK, he can probably lift vaders SSD with ease, he can choke a sith lord 20% more powerful than vader with "a little more difficulty" considering that people are arguing he kick vader's ass with ease oh yes and he can probably force grip some ones testicles light years away.

He is without doubt the most overrated and overpowered character in the mytho's with the exception of palpatine.

But what i will never understand is that if he was so almighty and godlike with his TK being able to lift a ship, why couldn't he simply disarm or "pawn" the exile's party with his l33t TK even though he got weakened with his god like TK that even sidious didn't match.

OH. MY. YAHWE. I can't believe that you are this dumb. If you want to back out of the argument now and preserve your dignity I won't even count it against you. You are just so far off base right now that you have no idea what you look like. If you are arguing simply for the sake of "winning a thread" then give it up. This isn't the one.

You are also wrong in this post:

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes someone, please, because you are using very bad examples. It seems as if you were trying to say Vader crushing a huge hut, that is as strong as durasteel, is a simple force feat, by comparing it to you being able to crush a cardboard box, which is very simple to do for a regular human.

When compared with lifting the Ravager it is simple. To raise a kilometer long ship while keeping its structural integrity sound, off of a planet requires both power (to achieve escape velocity) and skill (to keep the ship from tearing itself apart) FAR beyond what Vader has shown. His most impressive feat is that he crushed a house, the equivalent of a tin can. To implode the house he had to contend with the innate crystalline intermolecular structure of durasteel. N. had to defy gravity.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Why doesn't he. He did study the book of anger, which tells how a force storm is made.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Still that one feat beats anything Luke as ever shown, so that makes Palpatine better.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Again, i am just using your own logic.

It was either lift the ship, or stay there and rot.[/quote][/b]
So it was a do or die situation. Vader was in another such "do or die" situation during his duel with Starkiller. He even had the advantage of adrenaline to fuel his Force use and fighting. N. did not have that benefit, and still outperformed him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

And how is that the same situation.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I didn't think so neither.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

I meant in close combat.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Yoda has lifted heavier things than Sidious. Does that make Yoda better? No. It is obvious in their duel. Sidious has shown to be very proficient with TK. Yoda could have lifted a hundred pods, seeing how he lifted entire landing crafts, which are about a hundred times the size of a pod. Sidious seemed to be a little more proficient with TK.

Do you think that Yoda, who levitated an X-Wing, could not levitate 3 pods at once?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Stop using bad arguements and examples.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

When compared with lifting the Ravager it is simple. To raise a kilometer long ship while keeping its structural integrity sound, off of a planet requires both power (to achieve escape velocity) and skill (to keep the ship from tearing itself apart) FAR beyond what Vader has shown. His most impressive feat is that he crushed a house, the equivalent of a tin can. To implode the house he had to contend with the innate crystalline intermolecular structure of durasteel. N. had to defy gravity.

. [/B]

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If he is "far" beyond vader wouldn't that mean that he would be "far" beyond the most powerful sith lord(palpatine) in history too?

I thought palpy was the greatest not necessarily the most powerful..

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
If he is "far" beyond vader wouldn't that mean that he would be "far" beyond the most powerful sith lord(palpatine) in history too?

In regards to skill in TK, very possibly. His showing is greater than any of Palpatine's TK showings that I know of.

Originally posted by kotorfan
I thought palpy was the greatest not necessarily the most powerful..

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
In regards to skill in TK, very possibly. His showing is greater than any of Palpatine's TK showings that I know of.

I mean that for nihilus to lift such a massive object wouldn't it have taken him a little time to "charge up" his power considering its such a massive feat? I mean it took bane a few seconds to charge up enough energy to merely wreck he foundations of an old temple with his TK wave.

Not downplaying N's feat or anything but i just thought of this point, hell i rarely debate in SW now since i focus alot more on the gym and nutrition and school 😖

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Its plausible and its probably true as palpy has yet to demonstrate any TK feats, personally i think vader and SK surpasses Palpy there but what i wanted to say earlier was that if N could easily tool vader with TK, wouldn't it be logical to assume that N could do it to palpatine who is only 20% more powerful than vader?

I mean that for nihilus to lift such a massive object wouldn't it have taken him a little time to "charge up" his power considering its such a massive feat? I mean it took bane a few seconds to charge up enough energy to merely wreck he foundations of an old temple with his TK wave.

Not downplaying N's feat or anything but i just thought of this point, hell i rarely debate in SW now since i focus alot more on the gym and nutrition and school 😖

well what if he wanted to land.. and take off again. I agree it would take some time but it shouldn't take that much time cuz he would never get where he wanted to go..

SIDIOUS66, you win.

(win = bore/nauseate me into resignment)