Originally posted by Sinious
Why?
Lightsaber and other combat Skill's:
Vader is the better duelist. His technique is more refined. Even his most casual moves have been capable of staggering opponents and his hybrid style is built off of all seven form's of lightsaber combat. On the offensive Caedus's technique was heavily reliant on speed and agility but Vader has proven time and time again that he can deal with more agile opponents than himself. For example when he fought the Dark Woman. And while Caedus is also very skilled with other weapons like poison dart's and virbro blades, i doubt this will help him against Vader because I dont think Caedus will be able to find anywhere on Vader where he can insert the poison blade as Vader's cybernetic's and armor will prevent him from doing so. And I don't think Caedus will be able to get close enough with the Virbro blade to do any seriouse damage. Caedus's technique is heavily based around surprise and trickery as shown in his fight's with Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade. During his fight with Mara Jade, Mara had complete control of the fight and Caedus was only able to win by projecting an image an image of Ben Skywalker just as she was about to strike him down. As for the fight against Katarn Caedus was only able to win by using the force to send a speeder into the Jedi Master's back pushing him onto Caedus's blade. He did not win either of these fight's because he was a better duelist. And when Caedus had an opponent who he wasn't simply able to trick and who was a superior martial artist who could withstand his force abilities like luke and jaina then Caedus had nothing and the fight became a countdown until death. in comparison to this Vader was a duelist who had learnt from his mistakes and who over the years had developed a refined technique taking elements from all forms of lightsaber combat and would be able to defend against anything Caedus could throw at him.
Force Abilities:
Darth Caedus is an absolute master of the force and so is Vader despite his diminished force abilities from his duel on mustafar. Vader's telekinetic abilities were highly advanced and he has even been shown being able to use them against Jedi breaking through their force barrier's and throttling them to death. He could also use his force abilities to throw object's at his opponent's whilst still fighting them with his lightsaber and has been shown to be able to do this with relative ease as shown in his duel with Luke on Bespin. Vader is also proficient in the saber throw ability which he has demonstrated on multiple occasion's. Vader is also an excellent telepath. This is best shown in his finale duel with Luke on death star II where he was able to probe Luke and find out he had a sister. Vader is also proficient in the Tutaminus ability as shown in the Empire strike's back where he was able to absorb Han Solo's blaster bolts. Though it should be noted that because of his cybernetic's he couldn't use this against lightning however Vader will have no problem if Caedus decides to whip out a blaster during the fight. Vader could also use a power similar to force destruction as shown when he fought Marek on the Death Star. This allowed him to surround himself in a red energy field and attack Marek with dark side energy.
Caedus was also an absolute master with the dark side of the force and is skilled with a wide variety of power's. Caedus was also incredibly skilled with telekenesis and has been shown to be able to thrash opponent's about with powerful telekinetic blast's. He was also able to thrash about heavy objects with relative ease as shown on multiple occasion's. Caedus has also been shown to be proficient in the saberthrow ability though he does not use this ability often. Caedus like Vader is also an extremely proficient telepath and he has been shown to be extremely skilled with mind trick's and has been shown to be able to compel people into doing his bidding. He has also been shown to be able to penetrate a target's mind and cause a brain hemorrhage as shown when he interrogated boba fett's daughter. Caedus has also been shown to be extremely skilled in illusion's as shown during his fight with Mara Jade when he projected an image of Ben Skywalker causing her to hesitate and allow him to poison her. Caedus, like most Sith Lord's has been shown to be incredibly skilled with force lightning. He has also been shown to be able to use tutaminus to block blaster bolts. Caedus has also been shown to be skilled with shatterpoint though despite the fact that he did not elevate this ability to the same level as Mace Windu did, he was still alble to break seemingly unbreakable object's by finding there shatterpoint's.
Despite the fact that Caedus has a wide variety of powerful force abilitie's, I do not think that they are all battle efficient. For example tutaminus wont come into play because Vader doesn't use a blaster and both are trained to resist telepathy. As far as telekinesis goes I think they are both fairly evenly matched. Caedus's force lightning wont cause Vader too much trouble because he has several ways of dealing with it like blocking it with his lightsaber Though in an all out force contest where Vader has no weapon he wont be able to do this. That leaves shatter point and despite the fact that Caedus isnt as skilled in this ability as Mace Windu for example I still think this will provide him with a slight advantage over Vader.
In an all out fight I think Vader would win for the simple reason that his advantage in lightsaber combat is by a bigger margin than Caedus's advantage in the force and it is my opinion that after a long and hard fought battle Vader would win though it would not be easy for him.
Jaina had a massive amp from Luke against Caedus, and Mara picked the Kavan caverns to restrict Jacen's movements and force use. This is mentioned in text. Also the narrator remarks that even with help the strike team against Caedus with Kyle couldn't beat him on his worst day, and he beat them while injured and even fought off three of them at once.
He beat his opponents when they had advantages, and Vader has been halted by far less skilled opponents
Originally posted by carthage
Jaina had a massive amp from Luke against Caedus, and Mara picked the Kavan caverns to restrict Jacen's movements and force use. This is mentioned in text. Also the narrator remarks that even with help the strike team against Caedus with Kyle couldn't beat him on his worst day, and he beat them while injured and even fought off three of them at once.He beat his opponents when they had advantages, and Vader has been halted by far less skilled opponents
Jaina didn't have a massive amp against Caedus, she had a slight one but not massive. As for Mara that just show's Caedus's lack of tactical ingenuity in a fight and even though it was pretty much a pure lightsaber duel Mara dominated it and the only thing that saved Caedus was his illusion of Ben before mara struck the killing blow and I think this does show Caedus's failing's as a duelist. The strike team got in the way during that fight, they were more a hindrance than a help to Katarn and if Caedus and Katarn were in a pure lightsaber duel with no force abilities, I think Katarn would win that fight.
Originally posted by Imperial Knight
Jaina didn't have a massive amp against Caedus, she had a slight one but not massive. As for Mara that just show's Caedus's lack of tactical ingenuity in a fight and even though it was pretty much a pure lightsaber duel Mara dominated it and the only thing that saved Caedus was his illusion of Ben before mara struck the killing blow and I think this does show Caedus's failing's as a duelist. The strike team got in the way during that fight, they were more a hindrance than a help to Katarn and if Caedus and Katarn were in a pure lightsaber duel with no force abilities, I think Katarn would win that fight.
Other than the fact he was injured, restricted, and kept driving Mara back? Sure it was an even fight 👆. Mara even admitted her inferiority in the force, which is why she needed to prep and trap him in the caverns. She wouldn't have a chance on neutral ground. Compare that to Vader struggling to put down Kuro who is massively inferior to Mara, and who was giving him issues with her esoteric force abilities lol. Also no Caedus was deflecting Kyle's blows away harmlessly, and he even couldn't keep track of the movements of the strike team who were even getting in the way of each other. Keep in mind Caedus's admits they'd have no chance against him:
Katarn ignited his lightsaber as he came to a stop a few meters away.
"Care to surrender, Colonel Solo?"
Not to a traitor." Caedus looked at the other three as their Forceaugmented
sprints came to an end, leaving them in a semicircle before
him. Three Jedi Knights: the younger Horn, the Falleen Mithric, the Bothan
Hu'lya. He resisted the urge to snort. Separately or collectively, these Jedi
Knights were no match for him-Fury.
They were chasing the Jedi escape vehicle. Caedus swung at Horn, a blow
meant not to connect but to cause the young Jedi to flinch away into the
path of the Falleen, which he did. While they were interfering with each
other, Caedus gestured at the Bothan Jedi, hurling her toward Katarn.
Katarn hurled his lightsaber off to the side and caught Hu'lya with both
hands, preventing her from falling, prepared to pull her out of harm's way if
Caedus followed through.
Caedus did not. He kept his senses on Katarn's light-saber, and, when it
vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away
with his own blade.
Now the three Jedi Knights assailed Solo all-out, a fight they were doomed
to lose. Seha could not save them. Her tasks were accomplished
You can keep lowballing his showing against Mara, I can post where she admits inferiority in the force and highlight sections that she specifically needed prep to beat him. Jaina likewise is stated to be inferior to Jacen in Dark Journey, where she admits she lacks his nascent skill with a lightsaber. Obviously, she got better- but if she was his peer in skill she wouldn'tve needed an amp or specialized Mando training to hold her own in a duel
Originally posted by carthage
Other than the fact he was injured, restricted, and kept driving Mara back? Sure it was an even fight 👆. Mara even admitted her inferiority in the force, which is why she needed to prep and trap him in the caverns. She wouldn't have a chance on neutral ground. Compare that to Vader struggling to put down Kuro who is massively inferior to Mara, and who was giving him issues with her esoteric force abilities lol. Also no Caedus was deflecting Kyle's blows away harmlessly, and he even couldn't keep track of the movements of the strike team who were even getting in the way of each other. Keep in mind Caedus's admits they'd have no chance against him:You can keep lowballing his showing against Mara, I can post where she admits inferiority in the force and highlight sections that she specifically needed prep to beat him. Jaina likewise is stated to be inferior to Jacen in Dark Journey, where she admits she lacks his nascent skill with a lightsaber. Obviously, she got better- but if she was his peer in skill she wouldn'tve needed an amp to hold her own
Kuro is not massively inferior to Mara, Kuro was actually incredibly skilled and arguably better than Mara. And Mara may have been inferior in the force but not in lightsaber combat. I think in a pure lightsaber duel on even ground Mara could match Caedus. Kuro's esoteric abilities were more combat effective than Caedus's esoteric abilities. And as for what Caedus said when attacked by the stike team what he said is as much his own arrogance as the truth. And during loft Jaina massively improved and received a lot of combat training to improve her abilities and she was a match for Caedus.
Originally posted by carthage
Other than the fact he was injured, restricted, and kept driving Mara back? Sure it was an even fight 👆. Mara even admitted her inferiority in the force, which is why she needed to prep and trap him in the caverns. She wouldn't have a chance on neutral ground. Compare that to Vader struggling to put down Kuro who is massively inferior to Mara, and who was giving him issues with her esoteric force abilities lol. Also no Caedus was deflecting Kyle's blows away harmlessly, and he even couldn't keep track of the movements of the strike team who were even getting in the way of each other. Keep in mind Caedus's admits they'd have no chance against him:You can keep lowballing his showing against Mara, I can post where she admits inferiority in the force and highlight sections that she specifically needed prep to beat him. Jaina likewise is stated to be inferior to Jacen in Dark Journey, where she admits she lacks his nascent skill with a lightsaber. Obviously, she got better- but if she was his peer in skill she wouldn'tve needed an amp or specialized Mando training to hold her own in a duel
Also in that quote you gave where Caedus said they were no match for him, he was refering to the three knights not Katarn. (Three Jedi Knights: the younger Horn, the Falleen Mithric, the Bothan
Hu'lya. He resisted the urge to snort. Separately or collectively, these Jedi
Knights were no match for him-Fury.) He says nothing about Katarn.
Originally posted by Imperial Knight
Also in that quote you gave where Caedus said they were no match for him, he was refering to the three knights not Katarn. (Three Jedi Knights: the younger Horn, the Falleen Mithric, the Bothan
Hu'lya. He resisted the urge to snort. Separately or collectively, these Jedi
Knights were no match for him-Fury.) He says nothing about Katarn.
He deflected his blade harmlessly away (I highlighted that), and at no point is there any evidence of strain or difficulty caused by Katarn in their duel. Katarn isn't his equal or even remotely close to him in skill by any stretch.
Originally posted by carthage
He deflected his blade harmlessly away (I highlighted that), and at no point is there any evidence of strain or difficulty caused by Katarn in their duel. Katarn isn't his equal or even remotely close to him in skill by any stretch.
He is in a lightsaber duel and as I said the other members were getting in the way and Caedus only won that duel by throwing that speeder into Katarn's back, there is no evidence he would have won otherwise.
Originally posted by Imperial Knight
He is in a lightsaber duel and as I said the other members were getting in the way and Caedus only won that duel by throwing that speeder into Katarn's back, there is no evidence he would have won otherwise.
Other than the fact that he laughs at their attempts to beat him and that Katarn couldn't even win with help on his side?
Ok. You can keep lowballing, you haven't refuted a single thing I've posted.
Originally posted by carthage
Other than the fact that he laughs at their attempts to beat him and that Katarn couldn't even win with help on his side?Ok. You can keep lowballing, you haven't refuted a single thing I've posted.
You haven't refuted a single thing I have posted. The strike team were getting in the way of each other and you can't use Caedus's arrogance as fact. Caedus won that fight through trickery not skill.