Zoom Vs. The Runner

Originally posted by Galan007
I'd like to see them.

I've got one. More evidence probably in the Runner/SS fight, but I don't have it. 🙁

I'd like to point out a few things: first is that Runner outright states that he is faster than light. Something that, to my knowledge, Zoom never does (does Wally ever?). Second is that he's literally running a full circle around Thanos' energy beam. Visible light in a vacuum (space) travels at the speed of light. So he not only says he's faster than light, but he backs it up. And lastly, he doubles that speed before bullrushing him a final time.

He's doing all this without tapping into the gem. Because as he and later Thanos explains, he taps into the gem subconsciously. The only time he's using it is when he basically surprises himself. And what he's doing there to Thanos is all very conscious and deliberate. He knows exactly what he's doing.

Originally posted by Galan007
The fact that Wally could hit c instantly, sure leads me to believe that there would be no issue with him exceeding it... after instantly had passed - especially when he was getting his ass handed to him. Wally was just telling us what speed he could reach, within a given amount of time [if you can even call 'instantly' an amount of time]. He wasn't saying that was his max speed.

If you've got a problem with anything I said above, something along the lines of perhaps not believing the Runner's own statement about him being FTL...I'm going to point out, as you already said, that Flash only told us that with that boost from Jay and Bart he could hit zero to light speed instantly. No feat during his battles with Zoom actually depict this. 😉

But if you're cool with mine I'm cool with yours.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'd like to point out a few things: first is that Runner outright states that he is faster than light. Something that, to my knowledge, Zoom never does (does Wally ever?).

Originally posted by kgkg
Wally has said it and Zoom obviously can.

You happen to have specifics in mind?

runner with the gem without it zoom is the fastest being to ever live unamped.

Originally posted by zeel
runner with the gem without it zoom is the fastest being to ever live unamped.

Runner is still FTL without his gem and physically stronger than SS (who is in turn physically stronger than an Enraged Hulk) without aid from momentum.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I've got one. More evidence probably in the Runner/SS fight, but I don't have it. 🙁

I'd like to point out a few things: first is that Runner outright states that he is faster than light. Something that, to my knowledge, Zoom never does (does Wally ever?). Second is that he's literally running a full circle around Thanos' energy beam. Visible light in a vacuum (space) travels at the speed of light. So he not only says he's faster than light, but he backs it up. And lastly, he doubles that speed before bullrushing him a final time.

As for your theory of him having to of been travelling at light speed while circling Thanos, because we can see the aura trail, or whatever... imo, that's trying to apply way too much real world crap, into a fictional comic. Hell, in the vacuum of space they shouldn't be able to vocally speak to one another, either.... but they are. It's comics - if an aura trail makes that panel look better, it gets added.

Anyhow, after Wally amps, and tells us that he can move from 0 to c instantly, he actually backs it up in a one on one battle. He even goes on to say that us despite his perceptions being as heightened as they were, he could still hardly see Zoom. That's certainly tells me that Zoom's speed was greater than light, by a hefty margin [but I won't try to get into any specifics, because there's not evidence to be exact].

Meh, I'm pretty much done with this part of the debate. Both of our opinions have been stated, no need to go on. It's already a given that Zoom would be able to at least react faster than Zoom [regardless of who would win in a flat out race]. 😛

Originally posted by Galan007
It's already a given that Zoom would be able to at least react faster than Zoom [regardless of who would win in a flat out race]. 😛

Even if Zoom was faster he would loose due to runner's other ability.

IMO it would take one good hit to put Zoom down where Zoom does not have that luxury. Even "if" he was faster

Originally posted by kgkg
Zoom is faster than Zoom? 🤪

Odd though that in this image-

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1128/flashv2148022rg.jpg

Wally is already at light speed, in -- at most -- just a few feet.

Runner isn't impressive to me. He's mostly just hype, but I've been over this in other threads and won't take it up here.

Zoom can steal his spped. Also what happens when you give a gun to a 2 yr old? Can use it correctly right? Thats what happens when Runners gets the space gem

Originally posted by Galan007
Anyhow, after Wally amps, and tells us that he can move from 0 to c instantly, he actually backs it up in a one on one battle. He even goes on to say that us despite his perceptions being as heightened as they were, he could still hardly see Zoom. That's certainly tells me that Zoom's speed was greater than light, by a hefty margin [but I won't try to get into any specifics, because there's not evidence to be exact].

Originally posted by darthgoober
Here Runner displays telepathy, intangibility, and his patented “likeable” power. It’s also heavily implied that he can traverse multiple lightyears in moments…
http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=defenders14315lh5.jpg

Traverses multiple galaxies with Moondragon
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=defenders14316kx4.jpg

That pretty much implies that Runner is many times faster than light himself. That's without the gem.

And I don't see how what you're using as evidence is any different at all from what I'm using as evidence. Wally said he can hit lightspeed instantly. It doesn't mean he did in their battle. Especially because they were inside of a hospital at the time.

Zoom is definitely light speed...probably faster. But so is Runner. IMO, even faster.

Originally posted by Galan007
It's already a given that Zoom would be able to at least react faster than Runner [regardless of who would win in a flat out race]. 😛

I don't agree there, either. The gem lets him move teleport instantly. Zoom moving ahead of the timestream is a big help, and he even says in their battle, "I am BEYOND speed." But, with the gem, Runner doesn't need to solely rely on speed either, as he has space at his disposal.

Runner's at least as fast. Far stronger. Far more durable. Can also go intangible like Zoom & Flash. And...I think can fire energy blasts? I think Zoom has to get lucky to take a win or two.

Not for Galan:

Zoom won't be stealing his speed, either. It's granted by the Power Primordial, which resides within Runner. Zoom's not taking that.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That pretty much implies that Runner is many times faster than light himself. That's without the gem.

The first scan really tells us nothing about his speed. And the second scan shows Runner soaring [not 'running'] around with Moondragon for an unknown amount of time.

In no way/shape/form are they solid proof of Runner exceeding c.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And I don't see how what you're using as evidence is any different at all from what I'm using as evidence. Wally said he can hit lightspeed instantly. It doesn't mean he did in their battle. Especially because they were inside of a hospital at the time.

Zoom is definitely light speed...probably faster. But so is Runner. IMO, even faster.

And there's no 'probably(s)' about Zoom being > c, btw. 😛

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't agree there, either. The gem lets him move teleport instantly. Zoom moving ahead of the timestream is a big help, and he even says in their battle, "I am BEYOND speed." But, with the gem, Runner doesn't need to solely rely on speed either, as he has space at his disposal.

Originally posted by Galan007
Unless the space gem allows the Runner to move ahead of time [which it doesn't] then there is no possible way he can react faster than Zoom.

I didn't say react faster than Zoom. But at least as fast? I don't see why not. When Wally had Jay and Bart and Jesse's speed he was as fast as Zoom was. Could react just as fast. He can't move ahead of time.

It isn't impossible.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I didn't say react faster than Zoom. But at least as fast? I don't see why not. When Wally had Jay and Bart and Jesse's speed he was as fast as Zoom was. Could react just as fast. He can't move ahead of time.

It isn't impossible.

The only reason Wally became as fast as Zoom upon absorbing Jesse's speed, was because her connection to the speed force somehow allowed Wally to nearly stop time around him - shatter all laws of physics. He and Zoom were locked between the ticks of a second, literally [can post the scans if need be]. The space gem does not allow for that type of action.

Having said that, my statement still holds true.

The arguments presented in this thread are the reasons why I find the fact that people believe this site is DC biased hilarious.

And no, that's not me saying Zoom wins this.

Originally posted by Galan007
No.

The only reason Wally became as fast as Zoom upon absorbing Jesse's speed, was because her connection to the speed force somehow allowed Wally to nearly stop time around him - shatter all laws of physics. He and Zoom were locked between the ticks of a second, literally [can post the scans if need be]. The space gem does not allow for that type of action.

Having said that, my statement still holds true.

Ah, you know, I just assumed that it was kind of a figure of speech. 'Time nearly stops around me' etc. Just thought that meant they were going so fast that that's what it looked like (a lot like when he first got his speed back after Hal wiped his memory and the raindrops seemed to stop.)

You're interpretation's probably right.

Originally posted by Galan007
No.

The only reason Wally became as fast as Zoom upon absorbing Jesse's speed, was because her connection to the speed force somehow allowed Wally to nearly stop time around him - shatter all laws of physics. He and Zoom were locked between the ticks of a second, literally [can post the scans if need be]. The space gem does not allow for that type of action.

Having said that, my statement still holds true.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ah, you know, I just assumed that it was kind of a figure of speech. 'Time nearly stops around me' etc. Just thought that meant they were going so fast that that's what it looked like (a lot like when he first got his speed back after Hal wiped his memory and the raindrops seemed to stop.)

You're interpretation's probably right.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Does the Runner even NEED the Space Gem for that kind of thing? I was under the impression that he was able to function like that after his race with Makkari when the Eternal got stuck in "Ultimate Speed Mode"?

Runner w/ Gem. I don't really see it as much of a competition.