Yeah, Nemesis is just saying what i thought. Tom cant POSSIBLY be older than Sauron, as that was always his name, and he helped to create the world. Tom is probly just a being put there by Eru to help with the natural things and other crap. So, he cant be older than Sauron as there had to BE a world for him to live on. Maybe Tom isnt alive tho, maybe he was a vision or ghost or something sent by Eru as part of the Music. Possibly an unheard Fourth theme? Could that have been Tom?????
actually, NO. ungoliant is OLDER than MELKOR, this is a fact. both the things that gnaw at the earth and ungoliant's child who attacked frodo and sam is OLDER than sauron himself. these were explicitly stated in both tlor and silmarion. tom bombadil is called the "first" and the last. and even tolkiens said that he was an enigma.
treebeard didnt become an ent until the first elves taught himhow to speak. the entwives are also older than him.
Ok, so where did it say the Ungoliant, something created on Arda, is older than some1 who was created before the Earth was made, and helped create it. He even weaved in a second theme that was his evil, so he actually CHANGED the Music. THERE IS NO WAY ANYTHING IS OLDER THAN HIM. And if Tom in a enigma, who knows, he could be a Fourth theme never heardunder the Third. But post where it says that those things are OLDER han MELKOR. And Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world. She was born AFTER Arda was made, so she is younger than Melkor. And where did u get the thing about the things that gnaw at the earth? And Sauron is just as old as Melkor. His physical form, they are older than. His SPIRIT is as old as Melkor. They are the same age tho. EVERYTHING IS YOUNGER THAN THEM.
Your claim about Melkor is questionable. I'd like to see a page number?
The Maiar entered creation later (in some cases) so I could see an argument against Sauron, but Melkor? He's the origin of Evil. And he's the 1st (2nd?) author of the world. And he's smelly.
None of that suggests a post-Bombadil genesis.
she "went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world" shortly before the First Age - unogoliant's description in silmarion. BEFORE the first world implies BEFORE creation
A creature of an older world maybe it was - shelob in the return of the king
But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr - return of the king on shelob
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day." - gandalf, in the two towers on the tunnels beneath moria
Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside - tom bombadil
so u see, they are older.
Before the First age does not mean before Creation. The ages are only relevant when talking about time after the creation of the sun and moon.
Look:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/y/yearsofthetrees.html
So the Years of the Trees came to an end. At this time, the Valar made the Sun and Moon to give light to the World, and the Years of the Sun began, and with them the First Age.
And Shelob is not confirmed older, because she only predates Sauron's occupation of Mordor, not necessarily his creation.
^true true, however, the points about bombadil and the things that gnaw at the earth REMAIN. ungoliant is only a significant party because she was never said to be a valar or ainur and she actually became more powerful than morgoth at one time after the destruction of the trees. and ofcourse, she was there in the time of the trees.
Actually, thats not entirely accurate. Eru never had the Ainur add a theme that would include those, as the tThemes as i thought were : Elves and Arda, Melkors evil, and finally Men. So i dont see how they could be older than some1 that help create the world at which they gnaw.......... But maybe Sauron didnt come to Arda until after it was created, as Tulkas did. That could explain it. But then it would be physical or something.........
Originally posted by leonheartmm
or there cud have been world before eru created the ainur or maya.
There's only been one Arda. So if Ungoliant/Bombadil were spirits of Arda that would make them younger than all the Ainur. However it is likely that the Maiar may have been younger spirits but there's never been a clear distinction of age made concerning the different Ainur.
Well, no. The only thing Eru created before the world was the Ainur. Sauron was one of them, so the things that gnaw at the earth have to be either younger than Sauron or Maiar as well, or it would have to be Eru, which i doubt. Is it possible they are the incarnation of Morgoths evil? Because Melkor turned to evil before Sauron, so.....................
Well, you are right. It could be thought of like that, but is it possible that those things are Ainur? I dont really think they are, but ur opinion isn mine it may be different. I still stick to my theory of them being the incarnation of Morgoths evil, which WOULD be older than Sauron, as Morgoth wanted to destroy or enslave the very matter of Arda itself.
Hobbits: 7
Dwarves: 70
Humans: 130
Numenoreans: 240
Mouth Of Sauron: 290
Tom Bombadli: 400
Gimli: 450
Legolas: 520
Aragorn: 590
Gandalf The Grey: 660
Saruman: 730
Gandalf The White: 800
Radagast: 510
Nazgul: 470
Witch-King: 560
Eowyn: 575
Frodo: 460
Sam: 430
Merry: 380
Pippin: 320
Sauron: 860
Orcs: 110
Uruk-Hai: 180
Gothmog (The orc with one eye in TROTK): 250
Elrond: 310
Elves: 260
Galadriel: 350
Durin's Bane (Balrog in TFOTR): 480
Shelob: 370
Gollum: 310
Ungoliant: 400
Melkor (Morgoth): 1,700
Fingolfin: 800
Boromir: 300
Olephaunts: 200
Azog: 240
Bolg: 280
Bilbo (Young): 330
Bilbo (Old): 190
Smaug: 280
Thorin: 220
Eagles: 280
Ents: 320
Isildur: 930
That was a long list of power levels for LOTR now i can go and relax.