Originally posted by snoopdoggOr this.
Or this.http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Blade/Bladeadamantiumodachi2.jpg
http://comicbookresources.com/assets/images/preview/1183/prv1183_pg7.jpg
Most guys take down steel doors with striking power, Blade used brute strength there.
Originally posted by jinzin
Simple. PIS. Cap putting bricks in pain or out with punches is as bad of PIS as any other crap that people can obviously label as such. The only thing is that we've as a group have rationalized skill to be the cause of it because it's the most sense we can make of something that's completely nonsensical...Cap hurting bricks doesn't make sense anyway you slice it, you're talking about people with bullet proof skin, people who can take the blunt force trauma of others that have the damage output exeeding cap's by literally thousands of pounds more pressure per square inch. Yet skill somehow reverses their biology?
No, thankfully Marvel doesn't care about that, so us street loving comic readers get to drool over this stuff, and other people can't ignore it because it happens and happens WAY too often.
Would you still agree with what you wrote if I changed Cap with Wolverine?
Originally posted by RhinocerosAbsolutely...
Would you still agree with what you wrote if I changed Cap with Wolverine?
I don't try to make sense of Wolverine doing it either.Usually when these things get brought up it's as a point of comparison ala pissing contest when someone brings up soandso beat up this brick, "Yeah? Well so did he!"
I'd say it's more logical, considering Wolverine's bone density is harder than any brick.... but still illogical all the same as he shouldn't have the strength to make that matter.....
Originally posted by jinzin
Absolutely...I don't try to make sense of Wolverine doing it either.Usually when these things get brought up it's as a point of comparison ala pissing contest when someone brings up soandso beat up this brick, "Yeah? Well so did he!"
I'd say it's more logical, considering Wolverine's bone density is harder than any brick.... but still illogical all the same as he shouldn't have the strength to make that matter.....
The thing is you have scans of Wolverine doing this to Roughouse in your respect thread.
Wait a minute are you arguing that its ok for Wolverine to hurt and stun bricks because his fists are made of adamantuim?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The thing is you have scans of Wolverine doing this to Roughouse in your respect thread.Wait a minute are you arguing that its ok for Wolverine to hurt and stun bricks because his fists are made of adamantuim?
And.....
How is that "the thing"?
I have Wolverine's feats, from mid, to the very best in his respect thread because it's a respect thread. It's supposed to be his version of a greatest hits album.... It holds no barring on what I think SHOULD and SHOULDN'T happen...
You're confusing yourself with motive here.
Originally posted by jinzin
No, I'm saying it makes slightly more sense for him than someone like Cap, but it's STILL nonsensical... see this is what I mean when I say you don't get it.
Which is why I asked you a question to verify. So there is no justification for saying I dont get it.
Originally posted by jinzin
And.....How is that "the thing"?
I have Wolverine's feats, from mid, to the very best in his respect thread because it's a respect thread. It's supposed to be his version of a greatest hits album.... It holds no barring on what I think SHOULD and SHOULDN'T happen...
You're confusing yourself with motive here.
Where do you come off dictating what its nonsensical for a character to do something that hes been doing for 100s of years in a universe that doesnt make any sense in itself?
I could argue that it doesnt make sense for Wolverines HF to take class 100 shots. Hell his HF gets cut by swords and bullets but all of a sudden takes millions of tons of force.
Hell Bullseye can make an aeroplane go through a window withut breaking it...thats impossible.
Hell why is it mutants always tend to have useful powers?
Originally posted by Phantom Zoneuh-huh...
Which is why I asked you a question to verify. So there is no justification for saying I dont get it.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneWhen it doesn't make sense....
Where do you come off dictating what its nonsensical for a character to do something that hes been doing for 100s of years in a universe that doesnt make any sense in itself?
When one character has a norm which is brought considerably down to become someone elses feat... It's not that hard to figure out.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneIt may very well not, but since it's a mutant power there's no real world logic that can be applied to it now can there?
I could argue that it doesnt make sense for Wolverines HF to take class 100 shots. Hell his HF gets cut by swords and bullets but all of a sudden takes millions of tons of force.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneThat's practically his power... and yes it too doesn't make sense.
Hell Bullseye can make an aeroplane go through a window withut breaking it...thats impossible.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone😕
Hell why is it mutants always tend to have useful powers?
Originally posted by jinzinWhen it doesn't make sense....
When one character has a norm which is brought considerably down to become someone elses feat... It's not that hard to figure out.
Um its not borught down, thats caps skill, its like a superhuman power.
Originally posted by jinzin
It may very well not, but since it's a mutant power there's no real world logic that can be applied to it now can there?
That same logic could be applied to Caps fighting ability. Skill are often an equivalent to power.
Why can mutants powers be exempt from logic but not the skill of an enhanced super soldier?
Originally posted by jinzin
That's practically his power... and yes it too doesn't make sense.
It doesnt have to make sense. Caps fighting ability is his power.
Originally posted by jinzin😕
If I was as arrogant as you I would now tell you that this is what I mean by you dont get it. Mutants in themselves dont make any sense and all of there powers are useful....realistically alot of mutants would have powers like having a giant foot or having two heads, not eye beams and magnetic powers.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Um its not borught down, thats caps skill, its like a superhuman power.That same logic could be applied to Caps fighting ability. Skill are often an equivalent to power.
Why can mutants powers be exempt from logic but not the skill of an enhanced super soldier?
It doesnt have to make sense. Caps fighting ability is his power.
It wouldn't matter if Cap's fighting ability was learned or acquired the moment he took the Super Soldier Serum. A flawlessly-executed technique from Cap shouldn't hurt bricks. Anytime Cap has managed to hurt a brick with punches and kicks is PIS, because the brick's power (durability) is being ignored.
Wolverine only hurts bricks because of his claws. Without them, he wouldn't really fare much better than Cap.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
If I was as arrogant as you I would now tell you that this is what I mean by you dont get it. Mutants in themselves dont make any sense and all of there powers are useful....realistically alot of mutants would have powers like having a giant foot or having two heads, not eye beams and magnetic powers.
Beast is a blue furry animal, and he's miserable because of it. Cyclops hasn't been able to see without some type of technological restraint, and he's been miserable because of it. The Angel was born with wings and felt like a freak for much of his life. The Morlocks are mutants so disfigured that they took to the sewers and live in bands...
Mutant powers aren't necessarily advantageous or practical. Mutant heroes and villains use their powers as best as they can to suit their purposes. A guy with a giant foot and two heads probably wouldn't want to be a superhero, so you're not going to be hearing about him now, are you? Doesn't mean these types of mutants don't exist in comics.
I lost track of the debate. What the hell are we arguing about again?
Oh, yeah.
Elektra and her feats > Blade and his feats.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
Or this.http://comicbookresources.com/assets/images/preview/1183/prv1183_pg7.jpg
Most guys take down steel doors with striking power, Blade used brute strength there.
I mean some many characters are being discussed in this thread it hard to tell who people are talking about lol.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
If I was as arrogant as you I would now tell you that this is what I mean by you dont get it. Mutants in themselves dont make any sense and all of there powers are useful....realistically alot of mutants would have powers like having a giant foot or having two heads, not eye beams and magnetic powers.
We mainly only see the mutants that have good powers because those are the ones that are heroes/villains.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Um its not borught down, thats caps skill, its like a superhuman power.
Like a superpower?
So we ignore the validity of ESTABLISHED and literal superpowers.. for something that's LIKE a superpower?
You don't see the problem there?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
That same logic could be applied to Caps fighting ability. Skill are often an equivalent to power.
Skill can't be compared to that. Skill is something that actually exists.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Why can mutants powers be exempt from logic but not the skill of an enhanced super soldier?
Because mutant powers are just that POWERS...
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It doesnt have to make sense. Caps fighting ability is his power.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneYeah well, I'm not fluent in nonsense.
If I was as arrogant as you I would now tell you that this is what I mean by you dont get it.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneWhat Idol said.
Mutants in themselves dont make any sense and all of there powers are useful....realistically alot of mutants would have powers like having a giant foot or having two heads, not eye beams and magnetic powers.
Now the problem is THIS Alf:
You asked me how cap hurts bricks.. and the answer is PIS.. it's no more complicated and no less simple than that.
Cap has fighting skills unmatched, sure. But that doesn't automatically make him empowered to hurt bricks. In order to hurt bricks, Cap needs to hit with more force than their durability can resist. And that's just it.. physically, he simply can't... not just won't but physiologically can't.
In order for them to be hurt, established levels of superhuman durability that have resisted force greater than Cap can exert by hundreds to thousands of times, has to literally be ingored for the sake of Cap damaging them.
Now don't get me wrong, this happens.. and it happens often... But it IS PIS and it's not because of Cap's skill. Or at the least, it's not attributed as such. We've never seen one statement or on panel claim that skill equals brick hurting power.. it's just something that happens.. It happens so often among a select group that we the public have rationalized the reason why to have to do with skill.
And that's just it, it happens often.... and there's a clear difference. There's a difference when skilled MA's in comics hit a brick to when joe shmo does it. There's a clear distinction....
With Wolverine.. there isn't... He's hurt just as many times by shmo as he is by skilled warriors. Likewise he whethers just as many attacks and infact more.
There's no clear distinction there. You don't see people with higher skill level effecting Wolverine greater than people with lower skill. It doesn't work that way, it's a crap shoot.
Unless you would like to argue that Blade's friend was more skilled than the angel of death.
Gorgon putting Logan down on his knee for the duration of one panel does not mean that Logan wasn't hurting from a 15 round fight with Red.
And it certainly doesn't mean Wolverine can be hurt more by people with skill than the same attack ty by something without.
Originally posted by Starscream M
something that is a common occurrence (regardless of how illogical it may be) by definition is not PIS
I agree with this. I think alot of times its the persons skill that gets overlooked, thus PIS is called.
Gamora's skill easily allowed her to take down Thing, but finding a certain weakpoint in the body. It(the ability to apply such an attack) was even touched on in one of the latest Wolvie comics. With that said, Cap or any other stree lvl person hurting or defeating a brick fits well in comic book logic and shouldnt be called PIS imo.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
It wouldn't matter if Cap's fighting ability was learned or acquired the moment he took the Super Soldier Serum. A flawlessly-executed technique from Cap shouldn't hurt bricks. Anytime Cap has managed to hurt a brick with punches and kicks is PIS, because the brick's power (durability) is being ignored.
Caps skill is supposed to be a kin to a power that is supposed to hurt characters regardless of their durability. You might as well argue that karnacks skill is PIS. His skill is not defined as a power but a skill.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Beast is a blue furry animal, and he's miserable because of it. Cyclops hasn't been able to see without some type of technological restraint, and he's been miserable because of it. The Angel was born with wings and felt like a freak for much of his life. The Morlocks are mutants so disfigured that they took to the sewers and live in bands...Mutant powers aren't necessarily advantageous or practical. Mutant heroes and villains use their powers as best as they can to suit their purposes.
That doesnt disprove anything I said. I didnt say that mutants powers didnt give you problems. Rich people have problems due to money that doesnt mean that being rich isnt useful.
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
A guy with a giant foot and two heads probably wouldn't want to be a superhero, so you're not going to be hearing about him now, are you? Doesn't mean these types of mutants don't exist in comics.
Actually they do and we have heard of characters like that.
Originally posted by Mindset
Beak
Eye-Scream
Jazz
U-Go Girl
Ugly John
Sammy the Squid BoyWe mainly only see the mutants that have good powers because those are the ones that are heroes/villains.
Yes but even ordinary mutants have useful powers eg when Chamber entered a normal mutant bar the people there also posssessed useful powers.
Originally posted by jinzin
Like a superpower?So we ignore the validity of ESTABLISHED and literal superpowers.. for something that's LIKE a superpower?
You don't see the problem there?
The fact they are not defined as superhuman powers is irrelevant its the results that count both Bullseyes and Karnacks skills are not defined as powers but the results are superhuman.
If something is like stone it doesnt matter if its actually stone it can be used to do the same things that stone can and can even be better. The fact that skills are 'like' powers does not negate anything.
I think yourself have described Cap as superhuman, it stands to reason that his skill level should be superhuman.
Originally posted by jinzin
Marvel mutants have powers that go against human physics, biology, and logic... there's nothing we have to draw doubt on them from the real world.Skill can't be compared to that. Skill is something that actually exists.
Humans skill levels go against physics, biology and logic as well.
Originally posted by jinzin
Because mutant powers are just that POWERS...
Human skill is like a power as explained earlier.
Originally posted by jinzin
No it doesn't.... but that's not the point here.
Cap's stamina and strength are more his powers, his fighting ability is a skill.
..and his skill is at a superhuman level.
Originally posted by jinzin
Now the problem is THIS Alf:
You asked me how cap hurts bricks.. and the answer is PIS.. it's no more complicated and no less simple than that.
That is the problem you define it as PIS and your 100% certain your logic is as sound as usual.
Caps skill is superhuman therefore just like a power it should be exempt from logic.
