Originally posted by GideonIt's really not. Your misrepresentation of the original passage puts emphasis on the fact that Caedus was surprised; the original passage itself puts emphasis on the fact that Luke had pinned Caedus with no visible effort, and was continuing to hold him there with no apparent exertion.
Same thing, you sample of canine excrement!
Originally posted by Faunus
It's really not. Your misrepresentation of the original passage puts emphasis on the fact that Caedus was surprised; the original passage itself puts emphasis on the fact that Luke had pinned Caedus with no visible effort, and was continuing to hold him there with no apparent exertion.
And the extent of Caedus's retaliation is that he tried to spring from his chair. Throughout that whole confrontation, he didn't even attempt to fight back.
Nonetheless, my point still stands and you'll never defeat it. Ever. Ever. So suck it.
Originally posted by GideonBecause he couldn't:
And the extent of Caedus's retaliation is that he tried to spring from his chair. Throughout that whole confrontation, he didn't even attempt to fight back.
Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.[...] Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much.
As it is, he knew resistance would be stupid:
Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.
Originally posted by GideonQuiet.
Nonetheless, my point still stands and you'll never defeat it. Ever. Ever. So suck it.
Originally posted by Gideon...
WTF.Luke hurled Jacen into the chair without gesturing; what makes you think that because Jacen couldn't move physically that he was unable to use the Force against Skywalker?
Jacen acknowledges that the only thing standing between him and a quick death was his uncle's much-strained sense of decency. The only thing. Meaning that there was nothing else keeping Luke from butchering him on the spot. Since Jacen's Force-power is not the same thing as Luke's much-strained sense of decency, it would be included the "nothing else" category, meaning that it is one of an infinite number of things that were not standing between Jacen and a quick death. Ergo, Jacen could not have used the Force to stop Luke from killing him.
If your contention was that Jacen might still be able to use the Force to get one off, then so be it. If you are trying to imply that Jacen could have used his power to somehow stop Luke, you are wrong.
I didn't mean to spank you that hard.I told you it was illegal...
Originally posted by Gideon
That's right, you dirty little ****. I said it.Have you seen Valkyrie, by the way?
S-L-U-T is censored? Are you kiddin' me?
Awww...the word with the "s" on the beginning is just censored when you attempt to call me names, you degenerated, sorry and lame excuse for a sentient life-form.
Not really.Skywalker's feats at the end of the New Jedi Order were dependent upon a Jedi mind meld that he shared with Jaina and Jacen Solo; the Essential Guide to the Force makes it explicitly clear that Jedi mind melds increase the capability and efficiency of all participants beyond normal. To accredit this to solely Skywalker's ability is a falsehood.
Did I somehow miss them being part of the show, considering the fact that the book descripes them as totally astonished by their uncles actions? Seems a little bit off to assume that they had a key role in what Luke did there.
Likewise, to his Deus Ex Machina moment in the Dark Nest Trilogy, keep in mind that Jacen Solo was able to enter a state of oneness with the Force that, according to the same Essential Guide to the Force, was "the most powerful" on record (the guide being written during the Legacy of the Force series, circa Mara Jade Skywalker's death). Not to mention that Galen Marek was able to do the same thing at devastating consequence. It's hardly unique and, in Jacen's case, a source indicates that he can root himself in the Force to a degree more powerful than Luke.
Erm. Nope.
Luke took a force attack fueled by the force potential of the combined Killik hive (which at that point included more than 300 planets) and he simply shrugged it off. That aside his knowledge (and manipulation) of the "White Current" give him access to virtually limitless reserves of force energy. And even if Jacen rivaled him in one particular field of force use (or even rivaled his uncles potential) - Luke is still far more experienced in both force user and lightsaber combat.
As has been pointed out, Skywalker's feats during the assault on Shimrra's citadel were the product of a Jedi mind meld with Jaina and Jacen Solo; Skywalker himself cites it as much in the Essential Guide to the Force.
Same as Mace Windu calls himself a lesser lightsaber combatant in comparison to Depa Billaba and even Obi-Wan Kenobi? The last one to thrust about certain actions is the one acting. Jacen and Jaina both watch their uncles actions quite unable to belief their own eyes and the omniscient narrator dictates that Luke is "singlehandly" slaughtering the Vong. Hence any role that Jacen and Jaina may have played doesn't seem to be too great.
I didn't say that Caedus was close to him; I said that he managed to hold his own against his vastly more experienced uncle, despite the fact that Skywalker was using aggressive feelings (which we all know adds a tremendous advantage), the element of surprise, and Ben intervening on Skywalker's behalf.
That is the scenery which we see on first sight. Really Gideon. Luke was fighting one of his own students, on top of that his own nephew. If there was a "conflict" going on in the cold-hearted Darth Vader who had been a Sith Lord for 20 years, fighting his own son that he just "rediscovered" six months prior to that (ROTJ). What do you think how "determined" Luke himself was, fighting his own relative? Using agressive feelings doesn't mean that Luke was really determined to kill and / or defeat his opponent with every fabric of his being.
And when mentioning "aggressive feelings" you should probably keep in mind that Luke was fighting against a Sith Lord here.
Regarding Skywalker's immobilization of his nephew, to quote the passage: Skywalker may have held him there without visible effort, "but it was also true he took Caedus by surprise." It wasn't as if Caedus had time or inclination to prepare his defenses and Skywalker simply overcame them in raw strength.
I think Faunus has already dealt with that quite nicely.
I don't like this. You're going to attribute PIS to Skywalker's relative restraint and yet use the defeat of a villain as genuine indication of Skywalker's skill? As you're so fond of saying, Skywalker was overcome by Exar Kun's spirit post-DE and he was also defeated by Desann and Lumiya years after that.
Yay. And actually everybody can see the different aspects of the situations.
- in the situation with Kun, Luke had to confront one of his own students. Same happening with Desann. Same happening with Gantoris (who almost killed Luke during their lightsaber fight). Luke has never been seen going "all out" against his former students.
- Lumiya? Again: In their final confrontation, Luke couldn't simply go all out against her while holding her responsible for the death of Mara. Too much emotion involved there to allow Luke to accurately judge and act in this situation with all his might. Same with Caedus / Jacen.
What did stop Luke from going all out against the Vong or Sidious. See. Sidious was probably the only being in the saga that Luke did recognize as "not redeemable". In fact the Emperor is one of the only Dark Siders that Luke doesn't even attempt to "turn back to the light". And the Vong were just a collective of warriors that would all "fight to death". No negotiations. No other way to defeat them. No emotions involved.
Skywalker did not defeat Sidious in a Force fight. It took the combined power of no less than three Skywalkers to temporarily remove Sidious from his Force Storm. Even then, it wasn't as if they defeated him outright.
Oh not this story again. Fact: We have an untrained Leia, an unborn Anakin and Luke. As you probably know, an unborn childs brain is just developed to 25 % at max. How much power could the baby offer there, eh? And Leia? Untrained. And once again: What is said in the comic is that Leia "unlocks" unknown reserves in Luke. Neither is Anakin Solo mentioned, nor is any power from Leia herself mentioned. It's Luke potential unlocked that does the job.
And it doesn't change the fact, that Luke had just disarmed the youngest and most powerful version of Sidious in the saga minutes before that force confrontation happens.
You can't pick and choose, Nai. The fact of the matter is that even when he is not restrained (see his duel against Caedus), he does not exhibit powers that suggest he is a god, head and shoulders above his peers.
The "not restrained" is your interpretation of the scenario, Gideon. And I'm not going to take that as "fact". Luke simply can't fight his relative and former student without any emotion involved that might prevent him from "going all out". It's simply not possible by Luke's character. Even if he held Caedus responsible for a nice amount of bad-ass actions (including the death of Mara) and even if thinking that going all out would be the right thing to do, Luke won't combat Caedus without any feelings for his relative and student that won't stop him from jumping at Caedus and slaughter him with all might possible (even if that "restraint" might only be there on a subconscious level - see Vader's "There is no conflict."😉. Which is also implied by Luke force stunning Caedus and being able to kill the Sith without any problem (as Faunus has proven).
Originally posted by GideonI actually laughed that throaty, maddening Palpatine laugh when I read this.
Damn. You've got me. But you still can't defeat my argument. Ever. Ever.Neener neener!
I >>> GIDEON!! MWAHAHAHAAH!! YYYESSSS!
The A-Game is back, mother****ers.
EDIT: ****. Shit. Semen.
EDIT2: Huh. Interesting.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Awww...the word with the "s" on the beginning is just censored when you attempt to call me names, you degenerated, sorry and lame excuse for a sentient life-form.
Not your best.
I was kidding by the way; I don't intend for this to devolve into some insult-hurling match.
Edit: Good. Just didn't want you to think I was trying to personally insult you. The last time I went to banter with someone, he retaliated, and then reported.
Did I somehow miss them being part of the show, considering the fact that the book descripes them as totally astonished by their uncles actions? Seems a little bit off to assume that they had a key role in what Luke did there.
That's irrelevant, Nai. Skywalker himself confirms that his actions in the assault on Shimrra's citadel were the product of a powerful mind meld with Jaina and Jacen Solo. That Skywalker was the focal point of this meld and that his niece and nephew were in awe of the power it lent him doesn't mean that the meld was weak; it wasn't.
Erm. Nope.
Luke took a force attack fueled by the force potential of the combined Killik hive (which at that point included more than 300 planets) and he simply shrugged it off. That aside his knowledge (and manipulation) of the "White Current" give him access to virtually limitless reserves of force energy. And even if Jacen rivaled him in one particular field of force use (or even rivaled his uncles potential) - Luke is still far more experienced in both force user and lightsaber combat.
I'm simply telling you how it is from the Essential Guide to the Force which explicitly states when Jacen Solo rooted himself in the Force during his battle against Onimi, he became the most powerful manifestation of Force power on record, with the guide being written post-DN.
Same as Mace Windu calls himself a lesser lightsaber combatant in comparison to Depa Billaba and even Obi-Wan Kenobi? The last one to thrust about certain actions is the one acting. Jacen and Jaina both watch their uncles actions quite unable to belief their own eyes and the omniscient narrator dictates that Luke is "singlehandly" slaughtering the Vong. Hence any role that Jacen and Jaina may have played doesn't seem to be too great.
Windu implies that he is "not as great" as Kenobi in the RotS novelization; nowhere does he state it. And you have used the argument that Billaba's sheer swordsmanship eclipses Mace's own, so I don't see what the hell you're talking about.
Nevertheless, the Essential Guide to the Force makes it explicitly clear where Skywalker's strength came from in the assault on Shimrra's citadel. It wasn't the result of his own potency.
That is the scenery which we see on first sight. Really Gideon. Luke was fighting one of his own students, on top of that his own nephew. If there was a "conflict" going on in the cold-hearted Darth Vader who had been a Sith Lord for 20 years, fighting his own son that he just "rediscovered" six months prior to that (ROTJ). What do you think how "determined" Luke himself was, fighting his own relative? Using agressive feelings doesn't mean that Luke was really determined to kill and / or defeat his opponent with every fabric of his being.
That's an incredibly thin argument. Skywalker, to Ben's own astonishment, didn't even give Caedus the chance to surrender. He cloaked himself in the Force and sprang at Caedus without warning, attempting to kill him.
If you have the means to prove Skywalker didn't intend to kill his nephew, provide it.
And when mentioning "aggressive feelings" you should probably keep in mind that Luke was fighting against a Sith Lord here.
When Obi-Wan Kenobi faced Darth Maul as a padawan, he used aggression to briefly gain the upper hand. Anakin Skywalker would later use this against Count Dooku. Luke Skywalker would later use it against his father. All cases, a Jedi fights a more experienced and skilled enemy and uses rage to either temporarily or permenantly defeat them.
I'm not sure what you mean to insinuate here.
I think Faunus has already dealt with that quite nicely.
Except the fact remains that Skywalker caught Caedus off guard.
Yay. And actually everybody can see the different aspects of the situations.
But only mine is right.
- in the situation with Kun, Luke had to confront one of his own students. Same happening with Desann. Same happening with Gantoris (who almost killed Luke during their lightsaber fight). Luke has never been seen going "all out" against his former students.
Caedus.
- Lumiya? Again: In their final confrontation, Luke couldn't simply go all out against her while holding her responsible for the death of Mara. Too much emotion involved there to allow Luke to accurately judge and act in this situation with all his might. Same with Caedus / Jacen.
Three times during Legacy of the Force he battled Lumiya. And all three times, he didn't demonstrate vastly superior skill or power.
What did stop Luke from going all out against the Vong or Sidious. See. Sidious was probably the only being in the saga that Luke did recognize as "not redeemable". In fact the Emperor is one of the only Dark Siders that Luke doesn't even attempt to "turn back to the light". And the Vong were just a collective of warriors that would all "fight to death". No negotiations. No other way to defeat them. No emotions involved.
I'm not sure what you mean to suggest here.
Oh not this story again. Fact: We have an untrained Leia, an unborn Anakin and Luke. As you probably know, an unborn childs brain is just developed to 25 % at max. How much power could the baby offer there, eh? And Leia? Untrained. And once again: What is said in the comic is that Leia "unlocks" unknown reserves in Luke. Neither is Anakin Solo mentioned, nor is any power from Leia herself mentioned. It's Luke potential unlocked that does the job.
Leia herself confirms that Anakin joined with the two of them to defeat Sidious's Force Storm.
Power in the Force cannot be regulated to training. As Mace himself says in Shatterpoint, Anakin and Yoda possess far greater power than himself. Not necessarily skill, but power. And it took three Skywalkers (one of whom has potential equal to Luke's and one of whom turns out to be more powerful in the Force than either Jaina or Jacen) to stop Sidious's Force Storm.
And it doesn't change the fact, that Luke had just disarmed the youngest and most powerful version of Sidious in the saga minutes before that force confrontation happens.
I appreciate the dodge, but that also doesn't change the fact that Sidious disarmed Luke rather handily in their duel prior to that.
The "not restrained" is your interpretation of the scenario, Gideon. And I'm not going to take that as "fact". Luke simply can't fight his relative and former student without any emotion involved that might prevent him from "going all out". It's simply not possible by Luke's character. Even if he held Caedus responsible for a nice amount of bad-ass actions (including the death of Mara) and even if thinking that going all out would be the right thing to do, Luke won't combat Caedus without any feelings for his relative and student that won't stop him from jumping at Caedus and slaughter him with all might possible (even if that "restraint" might only be there on a subconscious level - see Vader's "There is no conflict."😉. Which is also implied by Luke force stunning Caedus and being able to kill the Sith without any problem (as Faunus has proven).
Except you haven't proven any of that. I want evidence that concludes that Luke was not out to kill Caedus and I want evidence that concludes that his feats were not the product of the Jedi mind meld with Jaina and Jacen.
Personally, Nai, I find your argument to be thin. I have cited sources confirming my end. Your rebuttal consists of trying to exploit nonexistent loopholes in my points.
Seriously, I'm not going to go another round with you if this is all you have to offer.
Originally posted by Gideon
That's irrelevant, Nai. Skywalker himself confirms that his actions in the assault on Shimrra's citadel were the product of a powerful mind meld with Jaina and Jacen Solo. That Skywalker was the focal point of this meld and that his niece and nephew were in awe of the power it lent him doesn't mean that the meld was weak; it wasn't.
No, no and no, Gideon.
As it seems you haven't understood the effect of the "battle-meld" as the Essential Guide to the Force calls it. The minds are linked, being turned into "one mind" which gives the individual Jedi a better overview over a battle. How does that influence Luke actions as they were perceived by Jacen and Jaina? Luke's speed would be unaffected by the force meld, as would his lightsaber skill be.
And in contrary to the Guides description of a Jedi being able to "sense the destinct personalities and feelings of the persons that make up the meld" Jacen and Jaina just perceive their uncle as "maelstorm of force energy" while he himself "isn't there individually". That feelings didn't spawn from the meld, but from Luke's very own connection to the force.
I'm simply telling you how it is from the Essential Guide to the Force which explicitly states when Jacen Solo rooted himself in the Force during his battle against Onimi, he became the most powerful manifestation of Force power on record, with the guide being written post-DN.
No. The Essential Guide states that according to the knowledge of Tionne this is the "most powerful manifestation of the force on record". How many people were present to witness the fight between Luke and Raynar? And please...the history section of the "Essential Guide" simply ignores the entire Dark Nest Trilogy, in case you didn't notice.
Nevertheless, the Essential Guide to the Force makes it explicitly clear where Skywalker's strength came from in the assault on Shimrra's citadel. It wasn't the result of his own potency.
Oh yes. It was. He was as fast and powerful as he appeared because that's simply the way he is. Of course the battle meld would have furthered his abilities, but that is not the reason why Jacen and Jaina perceived him the way they did right through their "joined minds".
That's an incredibly thin argument. Skywalker, to Ben's own astonishment, didn't even give Caedus the chance to surrender. He cloaked himself in the Force and sprang at Caedus without warning, attempting to kill him.
Yes, Gideon. And what exactly would hinder Luke to do the same with every other single opponent present in the mythos? Technically he can just mask his presence in the force, turn himself invisible and assault his opponents - or simply force rape them with a powerlevel that even Caedus wasn't capable of defending against.
If you have the means to prove Skywalker didn't intend to kill his nephew, provide it.
If you want to ignore pretty much every single source regarding Skywalker's character, that's your choice. I'm not going to assume that he certainly changed his character to an extend that allows him to combat a former student and relative with the intent to kill his opponent.
When Obi-Wan Kenobi faced Darth Maul as a padawan, he used aggression to briefly gain the upper hand. Anakin Skywalker would later use this against Count Dooku. Luke Skywalker would later use it against his father. All cases, a Jedi fights a more experienced and skilled enemy and uses rage to either temporarily or permenantly defeat them.
And in all of that cases, the "enraged Jedi" is possible a greater force user than the respective Sith Lord opposing them. So if you wanted to tell me that Luke is more powerful than Caedus, you did a nice job. Otherwise that examples don't get you anywhere.
Except the fact remains that Skywalker caught Caedus off guard.
And the fact remains that Luke dominated Caedus without effort after doing this to an extend that didn't even allow Caedus to do anything but sit on his ass. Really. Caedus, with all his force knowledge and power, simply didn't have the means to put anything up against Luke's abilities.
Three times during Legacy of the Force he battled Lumiya. And all three times, he didn't demonstrate vastly superior skill or power.
So are we supposed to believe that Lumiya is close to what Lucas himself called the "most powerful force user ever"? Really. The only reason for Luke not dominating anybody at any possible time is, that nobody would touch a Star Wars story featuring Luke Skywalker if that would be the case.
Leia herself confirms that Anakin joined with the two of them to defeat Sidious's Force Storm.
Yes? And where exactly? And since when is Leia more knowledgeable than a third-person narrator?
Power in the Force cannot be regulated to training. As Mace himself says in Shatterpoint, Anakin and Yoda possess far greater power than himself. Not necessarily skill, but power. And it took three Skywalkers (one of whom has potential equal to Luke's and one of whom turns out to be more powerful in the Force than either Jaina or Jacen) to stop Sidious's Force Storm.
Yeah. More cool stuff, please. Anakin Skywalker as a child not still in the womb of his mother, with an outburst of his skill, isn't able to overpower Hethrir. So P-L-E-A-S-E. There is and was nothing he could have done. And I must have missed the source that states Leia's potential is equal to Luke's. And where exactly is it stated that they both joined Luke with their power. Source please.
I appreciate the dodge, but that also doesn't change the fact that Sidious disarmed Luke rather handily in their duel prior to that.
When Luke was still over on the Dark Side and tried to destroy the Emperor from that position? After he just slaughtered dozens if not hundrets of the Emperor's Clone Bodies. Yeah...I wonder why he didn't win.
Except you haven't proven any of that. I want evidence that concludes that Luke was not out to kill Caedus and I want evidence that concludes that his feats were not the product of the Jedi mind meld with Jaina and Jacen.
a) Check every damn SW related release dealing with Luke Skywalker.
b) Go and read the "Essential Guide to the force", p. 79 and compare that to what Jacen and Jaina witness in TUF.
Personally, Nai, I find your argument to be thin. I have cited sources confirming my end. Your rebuttal consists of trying to exploit nonexistent loopholes in my points.
You still ignore the entire character development of Luke Skywalker as well as the fact that he totally dominated Caedus in terms of force abilities and the Sith himself admitted his inferiority to Luke in terms of lightsaber ability (which likely means that the difference between them in that department isn't even "close"😉. And what do you want to tell us. That Jaina Solo has skill on Luke's level, going by the fact that she defeated Caedus not only once but twice? That Lumiya is on one level with Luke? Please.
Seriously, I'm not going to go another round with you if this is all you have to offer.
I don't care. I accept opinions that stand beside the right one (which would be mine). Have fun with your view on the things.
Originally posted by Lethal Rogue
Luke is the most powerful character in the Star Wars mythos, and I think most people on this forum would agree with me. No other force-user has as many force abilities as luke and no one is as good of a swordsman. I mean, look at his powers and abilities on Wookiepedia, it's practically endless!
I do agree that Luke is the most powerful force user in history. I wouldn't say he had the most abilities. Wookieepedia goes into great detail with Luke's abilities, while it don't with many other's.
Do not take wookieepedia for granted(though it is pretty accurate with its sources). It is still an unofficial site.
That was one of the worst arguments I have ever been witness too. Ever. Nebaris is much more convincing when he wants to wave his hand and dismiss canon; at least he provides something approaching a reason or excuse. You seem content just to say "No" and then ignore what canon sources say. I'm going to counter your major points and then we're done, Nai. This was the final straw; you've made a career deliberately cherrypicking what canon you like and what canon you don't. It's not terribly surprising. After all, it's what the Antedulivians did best.
Yes, the ignore function seems ideal for you.
The Essential Guide to the Force makes specific reference that Luke Skywalker engaged in a battlemeld with Jaina and Jacen Solo during the final assault on Shimrra's citadel. That he was the focal point of their meld and the beneficiary of most of their strength, which in turn made him harder to sense, doesn't mean that they weren't in the meld. And, keep in mind, that description of him wasn't used throughout the whole battle, rather one specific part. And in addition to it making specific reference to Luke Skywalker using the battlemeld with Jaina and Jacen Solo, here are some pieces from the entry on the battlemeld that you can spend the rest of your time, not arguing with me, familiarizing yourself with:
By telepathically linking their minds together, Jedi can draw on one another's strength for support.
Battlemind permits a group of Jedi to become stronger than if each stood alone, while also enabling them to communicate with one another through the Force.
Using a combination of the group's minds and perceptions, each individual Jedi gains a sense of the entire battle arena, helping them to better discern where to move tactical elements and when to press an attack, hold back, or withdraw.
Indeed, the battlemeld was an advantage the enemy couldn't match.
-- all from the Essential Guide to the Force, page 79. And for the finishing move:
Near the end of the war with the Yuuzhan Vong, Luke Skywalker noted that the strength of his battlemeld with Jaina and Jacen Solo was such that the three might have been sharing the same mind, and that mind was the Force itself.
-- the Essential Guide to the Force, page 80.
In regards to Lumiya vs. Luke, Skywalker engaged Lumiya no less than three times during the Legacy of the Force series. The first time, she quite handily dominated him through clever manipulation of the environment. The second time, though she nearly killed him the first time, and he expressed a willingness to see her dead, he did not overpower her. The duel ended in a stalemate. The third time, he fought her and still did not demonstrate vastly superior skill or strength. Though he was extremely angry and vengeful at the time, the only thing that ended the duel was Lumiya losing her footing. He murdered an unarmed opponent in cold blood, a la Dooku. That was the extent of his rage and yet it didn't give him a suitably phenomenal advantage.
In regards to Caedus vs. Luke, Skywalker assaulted Caedus without direct provocation and without warning -- Ben himself was noted to have been astonished -- Luke simply didn't give him a chance to surrender or stop; he simply sprung, lightsaber ignited, and took a swing at his nephew's back. There was no restraint there. Add to the fact that Skywalker was visibly incensed and murderous and that Ben himself interfered on his father's behalf, Skywalker had several key advantages for the little skirmish and yet still was critically injured and was nearly killed at one point. You can't wave your hand and say "LOLZ Luke didn't want to kill Caedus."
Your rationale is that it defies Luke's character history. That's beyond lame and weak. So did becoming Palpatine's apprentice in Dark Empire when he refused him in Return of the Jedi. That doesn't make the events any less valid or legitimate because "it defies his character."
So, concluding, Luke Skywalker hasn't demonstrated any true strength that puts him leagues above anyone truly extraordinary. It is therefore logical that if he doesn't die at the hands of the first Sidious or Yoda, he will likely die at the hands of Palpatine circa Dark Empire. Though I do make room for the fact that it could go either way. As I said, I have no problem conceding the fact that Skywalker may be the most dangerous combatant in the whole of canon, it is by hairs, not yards.
We're done, Nai. For good. And you've lost.
I really really don't know what to say here. Luke is the strongest Force user that is apparent. But there is something known as controlled rage and uncontrolled rage. When he killed Lumiya, he was in a state of controlled rage, but when he saw Ben in the Embrace of Pain, Luke unleashed almost all of his Force powers. Anyone would be that pissed if they saw their child being tortured. Ben and Jacen/Caedus had never seen Luke use the Force like that before. It scared the hell out of Jacen/Caedus and Ben was amazed.
Caedus wasn't looking forward to his next encounter with Luke because he knew Luke would kill him. He even stated something of the sort that "Luke was using a new fighting style that to his knowledge no one had ever survived to talk about it." I don't think any Force user would want to face the Luke of LOTF.