first off when has bane ever blocked lightning with his force defenses. second if he is using his saber to prevent luke from cutting off his head and wrists whats left to stop a lightning attack. bane is one of my favorite characters but luke just has too much speed, power, knowledge of the force, and too much of a variety of skills for bane to overcome. he is simply out classed deal with it
first off when has bane ever blocked lightning with his force defenses.
Never. But Force defences have been shown to be able to block lightning, and Bane has shown he can do those so....
second if he is using his saber to prevent luke from cutting off his head and wrists whats left to stop a lightning attack.
Because Lukes gonna shot lightning from his eyes now is he? If Lukes using his saber to attack Bane, how's he gonna attack with EL? Think next time, O.K?
Originally posted by Raptor22
first off when has bane ever blocked lightning with his force defenses.
Since when does one need to have displayed something for it to be the case? He's capable of conjuring up Force Shields which have been proven to be capable of defending against the attack when Farfalla does it in Ro2. They also don't require active concentration to be in effect.
second if he is using his saber to prevent luke from cutting off his head and wrists whats left to stop a lightning attack.
1. Force defences.
2. Orbalisk armour.
3. The chances that Luke will be able to pull off such an attack directly in the middle of an exchange against someone as ferocious and offensively inclined as Bane are minimal at best.
bane is one of my favorite characters but luke just has too much speed,
Really? Because you say so? Support this assertion. Bane displayed a level of speed that highly trained Force Users weren't capable of visually seeing when he was the Sith equivalent of a Jedi youngling. He's far more powerful by Ro2 and Luke to my knowledge hasn't displayed anything even remotely on par.
power,
Really? Because you say so? Support this assertion. Bane displayed a planetary level of Force power when he absorbed, stored (and protected himself internally from), and redirected enough energy to ravage an entire planet, across the entire planet, when he was the Sith equivalent of a Jedi youngling. He's far more powerful by Ro2 and Luke to my knowledge hasn't displayed anything that could be considered too much for that.
knowledge of the force,
Really? Because you say so? Support this assertion. Bane obtained the entire knowledge bases of Darth Revan, and Freedon Nadd, has had ten years to learn from them both all the while displaying a completely astronomical learning rate. Luke was never much of a scholar to my knowledge and I don't recall any source depicting him as knowing all that much.
and too much of a variety of skills for bane to overcome.
Really? Because you say so? Support this assertion.
Originally posted by Faunus:
Darth Bane for one, displayed the ability to fill up a room capable of housing hundreds of students with a storm of force lightning with a single burst of energy, all while still a Sith initiate, and not an hour after having learnt the technique in the first place (a display of mastery with the technique that rivals Palpatine's best showing after decades of growth and refinement with it).
He's shown himself capable of energy absorption throughout all part of his body rather than just his hands (such as his face and back), the ability to store it for long durations of time and protect his internal organs from it, and the ability to redirect it across an entire planet (which would require that he be able to sense out the landscape across the planet with the Force in the first place).
His telepathic resistance is of such a high level that Kaan's manipulations -- which were capable of keeping the entire BoD under control, which included multiple notably powerful Sith Lords such as Kas'im, Quordis, Kopekz, and Seviss Vaa -- "had no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar."
He was capable of resisting one of the deadliest poisons in the Galaxy (something that the dark side is explicitly stated to not be very effective at), and this after having been unaware that it was in his body for most of the time until it began to maximise on its deadly effect.
When faced with eight Sith Umbaraan Assassins who had trained their entire lives to use the Force to shield themselves in it, he showed himself capable of completely revealing there presences with a single wave of intangible dark side energy.
His mastery as a seer is so great that he can see "far into the future," and he can apparently do this at will whereas all other seers in the mythos have only ever had visions come to them in situations beyond their control.
And most notable, of course, is his telekinesis, which had shown itself capable of absolutely crushing the likes of the highly ranked and powerful Quordis, breaking through his defences "as if they weren't there," the ability to affect vast areas of landscape with simply force pushes, and eight years into his career, five years before his current state at the end of Ro2, the ability to use it on the subatomic level, a level of control that's completely unprecedented and surpasses that of any other by about ten miles.
he is simply out classed deal with it
No. By virtue of mine and Faunus' superior arguments on the matter, Bane has more going for him.
Support this assertion. Bane obtained the entire knowledge bases of Darth Revan, and Freedon Nadd, has had ten years to learn from them both all the while displaying a completely astronomical learning rate.
So giving him 10 years with that holocron and citing it as a source for combat maneuvers is misleading at best.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That isn't quite accurate Neb. Bane destroyed Revan's holocron after only a few months (weeks?) of study in PoD. The contents of that holocron were primarily philosophical (suggesting the Rule of Two) and ritualistic in nature (the TB was a ritual, as was the Force Storm). We don't know if Bane learned any combat applicable techniques from Revan.So giving him 10 years with that holocron and citing it as a source for combat maneuvers is misleading at best.
Some kind of wingman you're turning out to be...
We're supposed to be allies! Did you not receive my pm?
Originally posted by Welkin Gunther
Some kind of wingman you're turning out to be...We're supposed to be allies! Did you not receive my pm?
No offense, but is IS true: Bane crushed Revan's holocron after he was finished using it.
I think that Luke will win, Bane might put up a good fight in sabers but in the end Luke shall destroy all.
Originally posted by Welkin Gunther
Some kind of wingman you're turning out to be...We're supposed to be allies! Did you not receive my pm?
Oh... right.
LUEK LOOOSES B/C HE CANT MOVE MTNS OR SUBATOMIC PARTICLES N TEH ORBALISX MEKE BENES STILE UNIQUE!!?!?!?!1111///1/1/1/11//1?!?!?!`~~`?~?1/`1
I'm sorry Neb, but I just don't see it. Luke's speed in [whichever book he fights Caedus over Ben] is absolutely incredible, as is his discretionary Force strength (again, shown against Caedus). He is, at this point, a step beyond the very high tiers that we're used to; He's more than Bane can take.
originaly posted by Noesoeb
Since when does one need to have displayed something for it to be the case? He's capable of conjuring up Force Shields which have been proven to be capable of defending against the attack when Farfalla does it in Ro2
Well if they never displayed it and its never been stated then what are u going by? and are u really comparing Farfallas force power to lotf Lukes?
posted by Noesoeb
1. Force defences.
2. Orbalisk armour.
3. The chances that Luke will be able to pull off such an attack directly in the middle of an exchange against someone as ferocious and offensively inclined as Bane are minimal at best.
1. Farfallas stasis broke through banes defense and held him for a second and he's not nearly as powerful as luke.
2. The whole point of the lightning is to get through the orbalisks how will they help.
3. Never quote me the odds
posted by Noesoeb
Really? Because you say so? Support this assertion. Bane displayed a level of speed that highly trained Force Users weren't capable of visually seeing when he was the Sith equivalent of a Jedi youngling. He's far more powerful by Ro2 and Luke to my knowledge hasn't displayed anything even remotely on par.
Bane displayed those feats of speed at the academy before he got his orbalisks. since Zannah stated that he has "hundreds of the creatures clung to him" ROT hard cover pg 150. and since the DSSB states that each shell weighs 1 kg and since the term "hundreds" implies at least 200 he has at LEAST 200 kg's of weight on him. thats like carrying a full grown man on your back while fighting. You can't use his speed and quickness before the orbalisks and the defense after them it doesn't work that way, unless it states somewhere that he retained his full speed after them, and if it does id appreciate u letting me know where.
quoted by Noesoeb
Really? Because you say so? Support this assertion. Bane displayed a planetary level of Force power when he absorbed, stored (and protected himself internally from), and redirected enough energy to ravage an entire planet, across the entire planet, when he was the Sith equivalent of a Jedi youngling. He's far more powerful by Ro2 and Luke to my knowledge hasn't displayed anything that could be considered too much for that.
Unless Bane is going to have the entire brotherhood of the sith powering him up during the fight this is really a moot point. Also Streen did the same thing to repulse daalas star destroyers when they attacked the jedi temple on yavin and students channeled their power through him. are you saying Streen is more powerful than Luke too because of this.
quoted by Noesoeb
Really? Because you say so? Support this assertion. Bane obtained the entire knowledge bases of Darth Revan, and Freedon Nadd, has had ten years to learn from them both all the while displaying a completely astronomical learning rate. Luke was never much of a scholar to my knowledge and I don't recall any source depicting him as knowing all that much.
Statement already negated by RedNemesis Thanks
Originally posted by Faunus:
When faced with eight Sith Umbaraan Assassins who had trained their entire lives to use the Force to shield themselves in it, he showed himself capable of completely revealing there presences with a single wave of intangible dark side energy.
And most notable, of course, is his telekinesis, which had shown itself capable of absolutely crushing the likes of the highly ranked and powerful Quordis, breaking through his defences "as if they weren't there," the ability to affect vast areas of landscape with simply force pushes, and eight years into his career, five years before his current state at the end of Ro2, the ability to use it on the subatomic level, a level of control that's completely unprecedented and surpasses that of any other by about ten miles.
First off he didn't sense the assassins with the force he got a twinge from the orbalisks and then noticed that the forrest was silent. Second the assassins had the upper hand when 5 of them shocked him and brought him to his knees and they would have killed him too if they capitalized on their advantage.
Third who cares if he can TK quordis even Bane said he is weak just like the rest of the brotherhood and nowhere near Lukes power.
And finally WHO CARES if he can manipulate the force sub-atomicaly he uses it to assemble holocrons just like every other sith that has made one and what the hell is that going to do in a duel. people keep using it as an huge advantage for bane but what the hell is he going to do with it.
Also as far as saber dueling The orbalisks quite often send bane into a "mindless Rage" so all his knowledge and strategy go right out the window and to quote Bane "The power came at the expense of subtly and cunning" Darth Bane ROT hardcover Pg. 215. And Zannah is quoted as saying about Sarro Xaj that "even though his technique was more refined than her masters, she'd been able to withstand it so far." Rot hardcover pg 202. so if Sarro some one who has been a jedi Knight for only 7 years is more refined than Bane's, what would it be compared to luke's whos been a Master for decades.
lastly some people compare banes feats saying he accomplished them at the sith academy when he was the equivalent of a jedi youngling. Maybe a youngling who is in his twenties who led soldiers through numerous battles using his force abilities to aid in victory for years before going to the academy. he would be comparable to that youngling.
Sorry Noesoeb and fannus Bane is outclassed and outmanned in a fight with Lotf Luke just like the two of u are in a debate with me.
Originally posted by Raptor22
originaly posted by NoesoebSince when does one need to have displayed something for it to be the case? He's capable of conjuring up Force Shields which have been proven to be capable of defending against the attack when Farfalla does it in Ro2
Well if they never displayed it and its never been stated then what are u going by?
You're clearly not the most accomplished reader here so I'll break it down real nice for you using numbers and everything.
1. Bane factually possesses the Force shield ability.
2. The Force shield ability factually possesses the capabilities to protect the user from Force Lightning, as shown when Farfalla performs that very action in Ro2.
3. Ergo, Bane can definitively use the Force to defend against Force Lightning.
Now was that really so hard?
and are u really comparing Farfallas force power to lotf Lukes?
No, I'm explaining that the technique can be used to protect oneself from Force lightning, and using Farfalla's usage as a validating example.
posted by Noesoeb
1. Force defences.2. Orbalisk armour.
3. The chances that Luke will be able to pull off such an attack directly in the middle of an exchange against someone as ferocious and offensively inclined as Bane are minimal at best.
1. Farfallas stasis broke through banes defense and held him for a second and he's not nearly as powerful as luke.
After having been powered up by Worror's (noted for being an extremely powerful Jedi who had been instrumental in some of the Republic's most important wins during the war, and possessing a natural talent for battle meditation) battle meditation, having been gathering energies for enough time that the narrator felt the need to make a note of it, and on a distracted Bane who was in the middle of charging at Worror. And even then it was only capable of holding him for a split second. Farfalla was incidentally one of the greatest Jedi Masters the era had to offer.
2. The whole point of the lightning is to get through the orbalisks how will they help.
Their ability to absorb hundreds of thousands of volts of electricity? Again, reading would be nice.
3. Never quote me the odds
I don't recall quoting anything; again, it's called a dictionary. Try spending a few minutes reading through it every now and then.
Common sense would dictate that against someone who can afford to almost exclusively go on the offensive and has displayed absolutely unparalleled levels of speed and ferocity, that the odds that Luke would be able to pull off such an attack (which would require a free hand and concentration) would be minimal.
posted by NoesoebReally? Because you say so? Support this assertion. Bane displayed a level of speed that highly trained Force Users weren't capable of visually seeing when he was the Sith equivalent of a Jedi youngling. He's far more powerful by Ro2 and Luke to my knowledge hasn't displayed anything even remotely on par.
Bane displayed those feats of speed at the academy before he got his orbalisks. since Zannah stated that he has "hundreds of the creatures clung to him" ROT hard cover pg 150. and since the DSSB states that each shell weighs 1 kg and since the term "hundreds" implies at least 200 he has at LEAST 200 kg's of weight on him. thats like carrying a full grown man on your back while fighting. You can't use his speed and quickness before the orbalisks and the defense after them it doesn't work that way, unless it states somewhere that he retained his full speed after them, and if it does id appreciate u letting me know where.
1. For all the added weight that would slow Bane down, the orbalisks more than make up for with the sheer adrenaline and darkside energies that they constantly fuel him with.
2. The added weight would bring about diminishing returns given how heavy he already actually was.
3. It was only the original orbalisks that attached themselves to his body that weighed that much; those that took form from the existing orbalisks were noticeably smaller and as such would have weighed less given that they were of the same material.
4. He's had over ten years to grow in power following that instance, approximately five times his then total amount of learning time, so logic would dictate that he'd be far more powerful by Ro2 and as such have a much higher capacity for enhancing his speed with the Force.
Evaluating the different advantages and single disadvantage that the orbalisks provide, and logic would dictate that he'd be capable of moving at far greater speeds than his Sith apprentice days.
quoted by NoesoebReally? Because you say so? Support this assertion. Bane displayed a planetary level of Force power when he absorbed, stored (and protected himself internally from), and redirected enough energy to ravage an entire planet, across the entire planet, when he was the Sith equivalent of a Jedi youngling. He's far more powerful by Ro2 and Luke to my knowledge hasn't displayed anything that could be considered too much for that.
Unless Bane is going to have the entire brotherhood of the sith powering him up during the fight this is really a moot point.
Given that absorbing, storing and redirecting the energy that the Brotherhood simply provided was all done under his own level of ability and not with anyone's help, no it's not.
Also Streen did the same thing to repulse daalas star destroyers when they attacked the jedi temple on yavin and students channeled their power through him. are you saying Streen is more powerful than Luke too because of this.
Given that Streen didn't do it on a planetary scale, you're committing a false comparison.
quoted by NoesoebReally? Because you say so? Support this assertion. Bane obtained the entire knowledge bases of Darth Revan, and Freedon Nadd, has had ten years to learn from them both all the while displaying a completely astronomical learning rate. Luke was never much of a scholar to my knowledge and I don't recall any source depicting him as knowing all that much.
Statement already negated by RedNemesis Thanks
All that was "negated" by Red Nemesis was that Bane had been in a position to learn from Revan's holocron for those ten years; this does nothing to take away from the fact that he did have access to Sadow's entire knowledge base during those ten years, and it does nothing to take away from the fact that you still haven't managed to support your claim that Luke's knowledge would be too much for Bane to handle; try and get to that.
Originally posted by Faunus:When faced with eight Sith Umbaraan Assassins who had trained their entire lives to use the Force to shield themselves in it, he showed himself capable of completely revealing there presences with a single wave of intangible dark side energy.
And most notable, of course, is his telekinesis, which had shown itself capable of absolutely crushing the likes of the highly ranked and powerful Quordis, breaking through his defences "as if they weren't there," the ability to affect vast areas of landscape with simply force pushes, and eight years into his career, five years before his current state at the end of Ro2, the ability to use it on the subatomic level, a level of control that's completely unprecedented and surpasses that of any other by about ten miles.
First off he didn't sense the assassins with the force he got a twinge from the orbalisks and then noticed that the forrest was silent.
And then went on to reveal the presences of all eight of them with one intangible wave of dark side energy, exactly as Faunus stated. Being caught off guard is one thing when you're unprepared; it's a totally different thing when you're actively honing your perceptions.
Second the assassins had the upper hand when 5 of them shocked him and brought him to his knees and they would have killed him too if they capitalized on their advantage.
Given that Bane essentially believed that the orbalisks were universally indestructible at that point in time and made no noticeable attempt to even avoid the assassin's force pikes, this has no bearing on: a) his ability to protect himself from such an attack or b) his new found awareness of the limitations of his armour.
Third who cares if he can TK quordis even Bane said he is weak just like the rest of the brotherhood
1. It was that he did it with such an overwhelming level of ease that makes the display impressive.
2. It was, among the other examples I listed, being used to point out Bane's variety of abilities.
3. Bane's comments that The Brotherhood were weak was based around their ideals, not each member's individual level of personal power. Quordis was clearly relatively powerful given his status among the Sith (head of the Academy, Kaan's right hand man after Kopekz) during such a martial era.
and nowhere near Lukes power.
I don't recall Bane saying that.
And finally WHO CARES if he can manipulate the force sub-atomicaly
Anyone who recognises the fact that it represents a completely unparalleled level of control over the Force would more than likely care about it.
he uses it to assemble holocrons just like every other sith that has made one
A completely unsupported assumption. Nowhere in the novel is it once said that all holocrons have to be made with such a level of precision; all that's stated is that Bane made these sub-atomic alterations to "ensure" that the matrices fitted perfectly in place.
and what the hell is that going to do in a duel.
It's a demonstration of Force control that directly determines how effectively he'd be capable of applying his level of power on a small scale in a close combat situation such as the one being discussed in this thread.
people keep using it as an huge advantage for bane but what the hell is he going to do with it.
Read the ^ and try to keep up.
Also as far as saber dueling The orbalisks quite often send bane into a "mindless Rage" so all his knowledge and strategy go right out the window and to quote Bane "The power came at the expense of subtly and cunning" Darth Bane ROT hardcover Pg. 215.
1. A situation would have to trigger that "mindless rage,"; every time that it happened in the novel it had been triggered by an incident of extreme frustration or anger; when no such incidents presented themselves he's shown the ability to plan for a battle in a calculating manner, fight cleverly with the use of his orbalisk armour and use it to catch his opponents off guard, and analyse the situation mid battle and adjust his tactics accordingly (such as how he did so in the final duel in Ro2 where he realises that Worror was the key to the Jedi Masters' survival and adjusted his tactics by maneuvering the battle (whilst feigning weakness and creating the illusion of being pushed back) as close to Worror as he could get so he could quickly finish him off).
2. For the purpose of the neutrality of these versus threads, we naturally assume that each character is fighting under their best condition.
3. Even if Bane were to be sent into a "mindless rage," it would only disrupt his strategy and tactics, not his sheer battle technique given that he's still conscious during the ordeal and that his attacks would operate subconsciously off of his own muscle memory.
And Zannah is quoted as saying about Sarro Xaj that "even though his technique was more refined than her masters, she'd been able to withstand it so far." Rot hardcover pg 202. so if Sarro some one who has been a jedi Knight for only 7 years is more refined than Bane's, what would it be compared to luke's whos been a Master for decades.
1. It's Zannah's opinion on the matter.
2. Experience isn't the be all end all, it can more than be made up for in sheer natural talent, as Bane himself displays when he masters every defencive application to every single move and sequence for all seven forms of the double-bladed lightsaber in approximately six months.
lastly some people compare banes feats saying he accomplished them at the sith academy when he was the equivalent of a jedi youngling. Maybe a youngling who is in his twenties who led soldiers through numerous battles using his force abilities to aid in victory for years before going to the academy. he would be comparable to that youngling.
His age is irrelevant given how late it was when he actually began his training, his instinctive use of the Force would have done nothing to add to his understanding or technical ability with the Force, and the point that you clearly missed was that by that point, he'd literally had a level of learning and training time on par with a Jedi youngling, a low level Jedi youngling in fact. He went on to spend an entire decade to grow in power and improve his mastery of the Force; approximately five times the amount he had then actually had under his belt.
Sorry Noesoeb and fannus Bane is outclassed and outmanned in a fight with Lotf Luke just like the two of u are in a debate with me. [/B]
Right, ignoring how miserably you actually failed at undermining the points that I presented, you've still yet to actually present any of your own. I don't know whether that weird quoting mess-up was done intentionally so you wouldn't have to directly address my requests that you prove up on your ridiculous claims, but regardless nobody with the exception of Dr McBeefington was fooled by those tricks and as it stands not a single person -- including my former ally and partner who will now be dealing with Gideon on his own -- has managed to make a logical case for Luke taking this.