Considering the duels Ventress has fought, won, and survived, Zannah doesn't stand a chance in the first category, and will lose the third if she fails to eliminate her opponent with the Force quickly. The second category is probably a little more in her favor, however; as an untrained ten year-old, she telekinetically snapped the necks of two Jedi in a fit of rage. After a decade of Bane's tutelage, I imagine she'd be capable of far more, and her Sith techniques will certainly be completely alien to Ventress.
That said, if we use the CWC, Ventress is capable of hurling tree trunks, tiles, and pillars the size of automobiles at Skywalker on the fly. She appears to be by far the more cunning and efficient combatant, and nearly crushed the heart of a centuries-old and extremely powerful Jedi Master while lying on the ground barely conscious. I'd say this one could go either way, too, but to be honest I'm leaning towards a sweep for Ventress.
Does Zannah's duel with Saro mean so little? Her Soresu would have to be at a reasonably high level to contend with a monster like him. On top of his physical bulk he had a strong mastery of the blade, having devoted his life to Weapons Mastery.
With that exception of that one objection, I fully agree with your assesment, although I'd call the all out section closer than you gave Zannah credit for. She will have to be a smart fighter to have a chance of killing Bane.
Originally posted by Red NemesisObi-Wan's Soresu qualifies as "reasonably high." Anakin's Djem So qualifies as "reasonably high." Ventress gave both of them fits. Skywalker couldn't defeat her without calling on the dark side in either of their duels.
Does Zannah's duel with Saro mean so little? Her Soresu would have to be at a reasonably high level to contend with a monster like him. On top of his physical bulk he had a strong mastery of the blade, having devoted his life to Weapons Mastery.
And IIRC, Zannah only lasted as long as she did because Johun was constantly getting in Sarro's way, and Sarro himself was being amped up by Worror's battle meditation. Those two outside factors make it difficult to analyze either Zannah's or Sarro's respective skills based on that duel alone. Zannah's one duel where there were no outside factors influencing the outcome was against an enraged Bane, and while no one can hold it against her, she got demolished.
With that exception of that one objection, I fully agree with your assesment, although I'd call the all out section closer than you gave Zannah credit for. She will have to be a smart fighter to have a chance of killing Bane.What someone will be is irrelevant. Otherwise, Anakin wins everything.
Originally posted by Red Nemesis... No.
O....k?Given that we know that she kills Bane, don't we know that she is a smart fighter?
We have no idea how she kills Bane. As Blax pointed out, she might have killed him in his sleep. She might have poisoned him, had him blown up ala Valorum, etc. I was being lenient in going along with your postulation that she would kill Bane in direct combat, but I didn't think you'd make the completely baseless assumption that she had to be and was as of RoT an extraordinarily cunning combatant.
Originally posted by Red NemesisI assumed you were using Zannah as of RoT, not the future version of the character of which we know nothing.
In retrospect, maybe this thread shouldn't have been made until the next Bane book is released.
Well, I can't explain why it made sense (even to myself) but I was operating on the idea that one does not change significantly with age, so Zannah's 'cleverness' would be just as accessible now as in 5 or ten or however many years. It was idiotic, but there you go.
So to recap:
I am an idiot.
Next up for discussion:
How much farther ahead in Force power is Ventress when compared to Zannah? (I don't know much about Ventress so extra info is always good.)
Originally posted by Publius II
And IIRC, Zannah only lasted as long as she did because Johun was constantly getting in Sarro's way, and Sarro himself was being amped up by Worror's battle meditation. Those two outside factors make it difficult to analyze either Zannah's or Sarro's respective skills based on that duel alone. Zannah's one duel where there were no outside factors influencing the outcome was against an enraged Bane, and while no one can hold it against her, she got demolished.
At the start of the fight yes, Zannah herself acknowledges that Johun is getting in the way and is benefitting her. She even notes that Johun's presence allows her to ward off their attacks easily. However about half-way through Johun leaves to help the others and it's just Zannah vs Sarro. Now Sarro-
* Was bigger and stronger than Bane.
* Had devoted his life to Weapon Mastery (as pointed out) and his Master was the best duellist of her day.
* Was said to be fast enough to "snatch a fly from the air."
* Had his Force powers boosted by Battle Meditation.
Even after Johun left, she was able to fend him off for a while. Now Zannah herself states that it was pushing her skills to the limit, but still, not being cut down instantly by someone who has all that going for him and managing to hold him off for even a few minutes is pretty impressive.
Now I agree that in a 'pure' weapons fight Asajj would win, but it won't be as easy as falling off a log.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Wasn't it because of a Johun distraction(him pushing Warro and Sorro turning to see what had happened) that caused Zannah to use sith sorcery to kill Sorro anyway. And I'm pretty sure that there wasn't more then half way through the duel.
Yeah, but prior to that distraction Zannah was fending Sarro off on only her own merits.
Originally posted by chilled monkeyI apologize if I insinuated that the duel would be easy for Ventress, but Zannah simply will not win. She stands a much better chance in the Force-only category because of her vastly superior knowledge of arcane techniques and her own considerable raw power, but even that one's a toss-up.
Now I agree that in a 'pure' weapons fight Asajj would win, but it won't be as easy as falling off a log.
Originally posted by Publius II
I apologize if I insinuated that the duel would be easy for Ventress, but Zannah simply will not win. She stands a much better chance in the Force-only category because of her vastly superior knowledge of arcane techniques and her own considerable raw power, but even that one's a toss-up.
No problem.
1. Sarro was not a Weapons Master.
2. She pulled it off only when Sarro made the impossibly stupid error of turning around in a fight.
I'm not denying Sarro was great, but let's not forget Zannah was not going to win that fight. Sarro was stealing her mobility, he was throwing her off completely and he was just about to kill her. And as good as Zannah's Soresu is, Ventress has faced Obi-wan, the undisputed king of Soresu and driven him to his limits. Zannah has not displayed the proficiency or mastery with Soresu Obi-wan has, nor can she be comfortably capable of taking on the best swordsmen the Jedi have to offer yet.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Sarro was not a Weapons Master.
2. She pulled it off only when Sarro made the impossibly stupid error of turning around in a fight.I'm not denying Sarro was great, but let's not forget Zannah was not going to win that fight. Sarro was stealing her mobility, he was throwing her off completely and he was just about to kill her. And as good as Zannah's Soresu is, Ventress has faced Obi-wan, the undisputed king of Soresu and driven him to his limits. Zannah has not displayed the proficiency or mastery with Soresu Obi-wan has, nor can she be comfortably capable of taking on the best swordsmen the Jedi have to offer yet.
For the most part I agree. There are two points I'd like to make though;
1. I admit I'm not sure about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Obi-Wan only achieved his 'de Soresu Master' level towards the end of the Clone Wars (by the time of RotS) and that when he fought Ventress he hadn't yet reached that level.
2. "She pulled it off only when Sarro made the impossibly stupid error of turning around in a fight."
True. However it does show that Zannah can execute the "nightmarish hallucinations mind whammy" very quickly.
I'm wondering, if she can put some distance between them, could she then pull off the mind whammy and use it to distract Ventress long enough to land the finishing blow?
Originally posted by chilled monkey
For the most part I agree. There are two points I'd like to make though;1. I admit I'm not sure about this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that Obi-Wan only achieved his 'de Soresu Master' level towards the end of the Clone Wars (by the time of RotS) and that when he fought Ventress he hadn't yet reached that level.
2. "She pulled it off only when Sarro made the impossibly stupid error of turning around in a fight."True. However it does show that Zannah can execute the "nightmarish hallucinations mind whammy" very quickly.
I'm wondering, if she can put some distance between them, could she then pull off the mind whammy and use it to distract Ventress long enough to land the finishing blow?