Cosmic (Monitor) Armor Superman Versus Lucifer

All this Mandrakk/Monitor stuff has me so confused.

Vertigo top-down structure seems to make no sense now, but thats been the established order for some time.

Also, if the Monitors were created by the seed program when the tower in Infinite Crisis was destroyed, then how did they create the multiverse, which existed before they were even around...

But also, when Superman changed the multiverse to how it was before Darkseid interfered or whatnot, and bringing about the end of the Monitors, can we just forget about them and keep the Vertigo structure?

My brain hurts.

The Miracle Machine was used to protect and shrink down the Multiverse while the hero's battled Mandrakk and to restore the different universes to there right places. It was stated in Countdown Arena 1 that Earth 13 is "Earth Vertigo sort of" which makes sense as some story's in Vergito could be counted as in DC History but then was refuted at Wondercon 08.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth-51#cite_note-29

Originally posted by Philosophía
And it's enough. I really don't want some writer to come and start showing how the New Gods start going against one another with 'ze energy blastz' and punches.

Even though that's exactly what the "most powahful and supreme" version of Superman and Mandrakk did in their battle?

Punches, energy blasts and heat vision.

The bottom only follows the lead of the top bruh.

Everything up to the actual fight between Superman and Mandrakk was decent(if a bit silly in its pretention), but when Mandrakk fell to his unmaking, all i could do is kinda giggle, since the biggest bad of them all was defeated by gravity, since flight apparently eluded him, though he flew at the start of the most mundane of rumbles.

The defeat of darkseid was leagues more cosmic and ethereal than the defeat of the biggest cosmic god of them all.

Heat vision to the death.

Originally posted by Galan007
On a serious note though, the 'Superman Beyond' comics were some of the more original issues I've ever read.

I agree. Confusing, a little melodramatic and over-the-top, but definitely original.

That being said, it's made clear from the issue that the scale Superman was seeing during the time he had the Cosmic Armor (holding Limbo in his hand) was due to being on a different plane of existence (Ideas, or something of the sort.)

This is a neutral universe. And besides, even if they were fighting in this Realm of Primal Forms, Lucifer has infinite will. That's a helluva lot of ideas he can create and shape. He'd be more powerful on that plane, too.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I agree. Confusing, a little melodramatic and over-the-top, but definitely original.

That being said, it's made clear from the issue that the scale Superman was seeing during the time he had the Cosmic Armor (holding Limbo in his hand) was due to being on a different plane of existence (Ideas, or something of the sort.)

This is a neutral universe. And besides, even if they were fighting in this Realm of Primal Forms, Lucifer has infinite will. That's a helluva lot of ideas he can create and shape. He'd be more powerful on that plane, too.

Originally posted by Galan007
Very true. However, Mandrakk possessed 'eternal' power - and Superman was able to adapt to, and overcome, that.

We both know how vague that is. Michael possesses Yahweh's power, and Lucifer killed him...So, how powerful, exactly, is 'eternal power'?

I think its somewhere around the power of DC's 52 universes. But that might have only been on the Ideas plane. Or his own empty boasts. Because as we can see - he gets owned in FC all too easily.

Because his own son was helping in addition to a whole bunch of other things.

Also, that was Mandrakk reduced in scale, because he was using Ogama's body and not his original.

Originally posted by Enyalus
We both know how vague that is. Michael possesses Yahweh's power, and Lucifer killed him...So, how powerful, exactly, is 'eternal power'?

Originally posted by Enyalus
he gets owned in FC all too easily.

Originally posted by Galan007
>>> Spectre/Radiant combined, at least.

Considering what Mandrakk did in that very same issue, how he was beaten pretty much defines PIS. imo.

He was defeated by an good story, which spawned from the greatest story. It was the final issue, it had to end, his time came and he lost.
That was his part of the story, right?

But he was the greatest and most powerful evil being and he still is.

Originally posted by Galan007
>>> Spectre/Radiant combined, at least.

Throughout the story, both Spectre and Radiant show they can't affect certain beings. And considering that they were beaten off panel, how is anyone to say for certain that Mandrakk beat and drained them straight up as opposed to them just not being effective against his type?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Throughout the story, both Spectre and Radiant show they can't affect certain beings. And considering that they were beaten off panel, how is anyone to say for certain that Mandrakk beat and drained them straight up as opposed to them just not being effective against his type?

Originally posted by Galan007
It was explained in the final issue of Reveleations that God forbade Spectre from exacting his vengence, so those beings might earn Radiant's mercy. It had nothing to do with the 'type' of character.

I know this. He also couldn't affect Cain.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He also couldn't affect Cain.

So that's why he couldn't affect Libra?

Originally posted by Mindset
So that's why he couldn't affect Libra?

Originally posted by Galan007
God forbade Spectre from exacting his vengence, so those beings might earn Radiant's mercy.

However, no one can kill Savage, because God simply forbids it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because God forbids it. The same obviously can't be said about Mandrakk.

Why not? How do you know this? The fight took place off-panel. Spectre and Radiant lost in a fair fight to Mandrakk, but 50 Supermen HV and 3 GL's power killed him?

Yea, that's what I was replying to.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Why not? How do you know this? The fight took place off-panel.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Spectre and Radiant lost in a fair fight to Mandrakk, but 50 Supermen HV and 3 GL's power killed him?

Mandrakk didn't have his real body and superman is kinda supposed to be his opposite so it makes sense for him to effect him,they were also all acting in favor of the multiversal monitor empowered by the miracle machine...its not that big of a pis moment.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Lucifer at his height was a supreme being. With his own realities and everything. His multiverse was more than 52. He beats the snot out of superman and takes the armor for himself.

Takes the armor for himself? Why? The second most powerful being in creation who stands on the shoulder of the Source, and not giving a f#$k about it, would want that armor?

Lucifer for the win. Unlike Supes, Lucifer is vastly more intelligent and combat experience when it comes to wielding nigh-omnipotent powers. I wouldn't be surprise if he took Supes best attack without a scratch and sends him back to a lower plane of existence.