Originally posted by cloud102
What level do you see Superman at?
This version of Superman is clearly multiversal. I wouldn't put him over high abstracts like Lucifer or LT, though (because I know those two have come up in previous debates.) And I wouldn't put him over either PR MM or PR Beyonder, either.
And most of the uber descriptions in the comic were because of the plane of existence he was on...fighting on a plane of basically primal concepts. Not because Superman's actual level of power was that great.
Originally posted by Enyalus
This version of Superman is clearly multiversal. I wouldn't put him over high abstracts like Lucifer or LT, though (because I know those two have come up in previous debates.) And I wouldn't put him over either PR MM or PR Beyonder, either.
So you think "defeat any foe" is just hyperbole and no truth to it whatsoever? I think it CAN go either way, so I really don't think it's set in stone.
Originally posted by cloud102
So you think "defeat any foe" is just hyperbole and no truth to it whatsoever? I think it CAN go either way, so I really don't think it's set in stone.
It's a classic no-limits fallacy. Who was the armor designed by? Monitors. And Monitor tech, while a-****ing-mazing, isn't going to turn Superman into the Be-All-End-All being. If someone put him up against Yahweh, do you think the majority would give Superman the win then? Afterall, it did say 'any foe'. That'd include God, right?
Same type of stuff was said about Doomsday when he was first introduced, and in H/P, and in the DD annual. By Darkseid himself, no less.
Originally posted by Enyalus
This version of Superman is clearly multiversal. I wouldn't put him over high abstracts like Lucifer or LT, though (because I know those two have come up in previous debates.) And I wouldn't put him over either PR MM or PR Beyonder, either.And most of the uber descriptions in the comic were because of the plane of existence he was on...fighting on a plane of basically primal concepts. Not because Superman's actual level of power was that great.
[/thread]
Originally posted by Enyalus
It's a classic no-limits fallacy. Who was the armor designed by? Monitors. And Monitor tech, while a-****ing-mazing, isn't going to turn Superman into the Be-All-End-All being. If someone put him up against Yahweh, do you think the majority would give Superman the win then? Afterall, it did say 'any foe'. That'd include God, right?Same type of stuff was said about Doomsday when he was first introduced, and in H/P, and in the DD annual. By Darkseid himself, no less.
But wasn't there MORE than Superman in the armor to begin with?
Originally posted by Enyalus
52 universes for one company. Infinite universes for another.Last time I checked, infinity is larger than 52. I didn't say Marvel was better than DC. I said the Marvel omniverse was larger. Which, empirically speaking - is true. And Beyonder's realm was much larger than Marvel's. And he was Supreme in it.
Which is why it makes no sense for someone to say 'Superman in his cosmic armor should beat anyone under a Supreme Being' and then say that he solos or that Team One wins here.
I made a factual observation. That's all.
Originally posted by cloud102
But wasn't there MORE than Superman in the armor to begin with?
The Captain Atom Superman (you probably remember his name, I only remember 'Allen'😉 killed Superman by fusing him with his anti-matter counterpart, Ultraman. The energy released he directed to a higher plane...the Plane of Forms (Sorry, I love Plato so I'm using that terminology 😉) ....Which, if I understood the story, is at the edge of Creation and closest to the Primal Monitor's consciousness. Which is why a pan-dimension like Limbo seemed so insignificant to Superman while he was there. And besides that, the idea of Superman is one of, if not the most, powerful symbols in the DCU. So being in that plane, he's obviously much stronger than he would be, say, on Earth. Plus he got the Cosmic Armor to boot.
So, in a short answer to your question...yes.
Hypertime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertime
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Hypertime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertime
The Kingdom is an Elseworlds, non-canon story.
Originally posted by cloud102
I thought Hypertime was long gone.
It is. From the article:
"Hypertime has been infrequently used in DC titles subsequent to its introduction in The Kingdom, perhaps as a result of its chief architects and proponents, writers Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, working elsewhere in the comics industry (notably for Marvel Comics). While the concept was used in two multi-part stories involving the Modern Age Superboy and Walter West the Dark Flash, many writers (such as Titans writer Jay Faerber) found that their attempts to use Hypertime were either outright rejected or their stories severely altered to allow no attempt to further expand upon the concept.[citation needed]
In July 2005, in promotional talks at the San Diego Comic-Con DC Executive Editor Dan DiDio effectively disavowed the concept of Hypertime, stating it would no longer be used in future DCU titles.[1]
The Infinite Crisis series resolved the continuity problem in a different way, according to DiDio, who in a Newsarama interview said "The great part about Crisis is that all mistakes and retcons are time anomalies."[2] DiDio's solution, as seen in the pages of Infinite Crisis, postulates reality-changing "continuity waves", generated by Superboy-Prime punching the walls of his extradimensional prison."